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  1. #51
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    To clarify, I'm not endorsing verbatim the bit about angels, I just think it can help.

    Who are we to limit God to what's logical to us? Looking inside oneself is just as important, if not more so, as other methods.

    That being said, I'm fully aware I can't give perfect explanations.
    Our experience of the empirical have had a significant correlation with what we define as events and facts.
    If you think and see and feel you've just hit a wall, and everybody else experience the same thing it's somehow showing that there's a correlation between our perception of the universe and what is actually out there.

    While if i just picture a wall in my mind and walk straight chances are very very low that the wall i just imagined will be there and that i'll hit it.

    Now If i draw a plan of the room i'm in, close my eyes and picture the plan and know that 4 steps straight will lead me to the wall, i'll find a high degree of correlation between that empiricaly based model and my experience of reality.

    Same goes with everything we ever experienced, even the whole speed of light thing, it makes just as much sense empirically, because the universe we observe couldn't be the way we see it knowing that stars move at different relative speed compared to us yet apparently display the same properties\physics than we experience.

    So how does somebody drop the only reliable source of 'real world' information we know and prefer theories that explain the universe and satisfy our natural tendencies for antropocentrical thinking and causation but without any empirical backbone;
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  2. #52
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I'm just trying to understand why and how somebody can reach conclusions about let's say how jesus is god when anybody could probably unearth about a million other examples of people claiming to be sons of a god, who died being called heretics, had followers and were told to have done plenty of miracles because somebody saw somebody else who saw and so on.

    So why the preferences and how can it be justified rationally any better than any other legend\creation story since the dawn of time.
    What led you to these conclusions rather than another ?

    How come that everytime some empirical information goes against a religious idea most people will go for the religious 'i-heard-somebody-say-that-he-heard-that' chain instead of what's right under their nose?

    Yes those are serious questions.
    If somebody feel like giving me a rational or any kind of non biased answer it'd be kind of nice.
    thx.
    Yeah, you're right, there were other miracle-workers and heretics and whatever else, even around the time of Jesus. Are Jesus' message, actions, and spirit any less God-like because of this? To me, no.

    Part of the reason Jesus is such a tough topic is because of the literary genres of the ancient world are different from today's. The New Testament is so rich with references, culturally, historically, and biblicallly, that for one to have a debate along those lines, one should be very knowledgeable in biblical theology. I am not. I have only liimited experience with the NT as historical documents, and so cannot properly argue as someone more learned than I could for my side. I was able to take one college course on the subject, and it was amazing. Unfortunateley, I have forgotten much of what would help me here. Suffice to say, I wouldn't knock the whole thing just because I can't do it justice.

    Also, if God is everywhere, why would it be so unlikely that God reveal Himself in some way outside of the Bible? Other legends/myths may very well have grains of truth in them, even if they are in disagreement with Christianity on the surface. I look to Jesus as the perfect and supreme sign and example.

    Again, I would advise anyone to consider the messages of Christianity while looking inside onself--not just to the earth in front of you.

    If my goal is union with God, how could I possibly prove my method is right without dying and coming back? Have mercy on me!
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  3. #53
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    thanks for taking the time to answer take five
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  4. #54
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    thanks for taking the time to answer take five
    Sure no problem. I need to do something while I'm at work!
    Johari Nohari

    "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared. "--Niccolo Machiavelli

  5. #55
    Member ADISCIPLE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I'm just trying to understand why and how somebody can reach conclusions about let's say how jesus is god when anybody could probably unearth about a million other examples of people claiming to be sons of a god, who died being called heretics, had followers and were told to have done plenty of miracles because somebody saw somebody else who saw and so on.

    So why the preferences and how can it be justified rationally any better than any other legend\creation story since the dawn of time.
    What led you to these conclusions rather than another ?

    How come that everytime some empirical information goes against a religious idea most people will go for the religious 'i-heard-somebody-say-that-he-heard-that' chain instead of what's right under their nose?

    Yes those are serious questions.
    If somebody feel like giving me a rational or any kind of non biased answer it'd be kind of nice.
    thx.
    How many others who proclaimed this would have died that death? Whose name could stick around this strong for two millenia? These are my questions when I think of not believing in Christianity. To me its the hardest part, because I cannot answer that rationally.

  6. #56
    Member ADISCIPLE's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Sure no problem. I need to do something while I'm at work!
    Your answers are great x2.

  7. #57
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ADISCIPLE View Post
    How many others who proclaimed this would have died that death? Whose name could stick around this strong for two millenia? These are my questions when I think of not believing in Christianity. To me its the hardest part, because I cannot answer that rationally.
    Alot of people actually.

    I even think that caesar would fit the image of a 'son of god' better in most cultures. In fact most of the 'dying christ sucess' is due to a nietszchian slave morality. So basically the desire of the weak to morally cast down and control the strong.

    hence my questions
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Alot of people actually.

    I even think that caesar would fit the image of a 'son of god' better in most cultures. In fact most of the 'dying christ sucess' is due to a nietszchian slave morality. So basically the desire of the weak to morally cast down and control the strong.

    hence my questions
    +1

  9. #59
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I'm just trying to understand why and how somebody can reach conclusions about let's say how jesus is god when anybody could probably unearth about a million other examples of people claiming to be sons of a god, who died being called heretics, had followers and were told to have done plenty of miracles because somebody saw somebody else who saw and so on.

    So why the preferences and how can it be justified rationally any better than any other legend\creation story since the dawn of time.
    What led you to these conclusions rather than another ?

    How come that everytime some empirical information goes against a religious idea most people will go for the religious 'i-heard-somebody-say-that-he-heard-that' chain instead of what's right under their nose?

    Yes those are serious questions.
    If somebody feel like giving me a rational or any kind of non biased answer it'd be kind of nice.
    thx.
    Before I answer, I'd like to ask you a question. (If you don't respond, consider this post stillborn.)

    What is your understanding of the work of the messiah?

  10. #60
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    I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Eck probably isn't down with the idea of a messiah at all...let alone the work of one.

    Does it matter though? Lots of other believers don't put much stock in the whole messiah thing either so it doesn't seem like it's terribly relevant to the question of what god is. IMO

    (Apologies to you Eck if I'm out of line)

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