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  1. #21
    Senior Member Eagle's Avatar
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    Yes, if i were wrong. But it would have to be undeniable proof that I was wrong not just possible evidence based off of implied evidence or what not. Oh, and did I mention that I'm not wrong. Might be closed minded. I just call it faith. I nice little paradox to you, that really isn't one to me. Life's full of things like that. Things that seemingly don't work together on face value, but do under the surface.
    - Caleb

    "I am what I need to be..."

    "Nemo me impune lacessit - No one provokes me with impunity."

  2. #22
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The question is so hypothetical (since it can never really be accomplished) that most people can't give it serious consideration.
    Yeah, this.

    But this forum revolves around hypothetical questions. I post here to provide the occasional dose of realism.
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  3. #23
    Member ADISCIPLE's Avatar
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    I don't have a specific belief, but hypothetically If you had concrete proof of no intelligent design I would want to know. I agree that some people would NOT want to know because it would darastically change their lifestyle and would send them into an downward spiral of confusion.

  4. #24
    Badoom~ Skyward's Avatar
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    I would want to know. Then I can become buddhist without any conscious baggage
    'Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and its better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring.' - Marilyn Monroe

    This is who I am, escapist, paradise-seeker.
    -Nightwish

    Anthropology Major out of Hamline University. St. Paul, Minnesota.

  5. #25
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle View Post
    Yes, if i were wrong. But it would have to be undeniable proof that I was wrong not just possible evidence based off of implied evidence or what not. Oh, and did I mention that I'm not wrong. Might be closed minded. I just call it faith. I nice little paradox to you, that really isn't one to me. Life's full of things like that. Things that seemingly don't work together on face value, but do under the surface.
    A lecture on seeing under the surface of blind faith...from a religious ISTJ?

    I've scheduled "lessons in completing goals on time...from an ENFP" for next period.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #26
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X, The_Liquid_Laser, et alia
    yes, of course.
    yes, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    This is like the "can God create a rock so heavy he can't move it?" question.
    In a sense. The trouble is that one's conception of God is phoenix-like. You can disprove it only insofar as you can "kill" a phoenix. It will only rise from the ashes, stronger, whatever philosophical stages or attitudes this involves. This shouldn't appear controversial. Even an atheist can agree with this. Simply, what is fallacious is discarded, and the remainder is purer. But since it is not immediately obvious that the fallacy can be separated from the notion in question, a threat to the former appears as a threat to the latter, and so you see how people can become overly defensive, and abuse words like "faith", as though to make it stand as a bulwark against reason (which is straightforwardly unreasonable). Once they bite the bullet, and the system comes crashing down, they find that the majority of it actually works just fine ... better than ever, in fact! It is through such trials one becomes stronger in their (dare I say) "faith"/"reason" in the truer sense of the word.

    apropos: "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful."
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
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  7. #27
    Senior Member ENFJ_Catholic's Avatar
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    Post A Response

    To answer the original question: yes. It's important to seek out the truth in all ways and manners possible... and justly judge accordingly...

    Now to ask a few questions of my own!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    People with enough faith really don't care what "evidence" accumulates going against their belief, since faith is not about drawing conclusions but rather about believing despite lack or accumulation of evidence. They'll figure simply that your evidence is wrong or that ultimately they'll be shown to be right even if evidence now points otherwise. "Evidence" is irrelevant and, really, it only gets dragged in by believers so that they can defend their faith against antagonists or to use as a lever to "force" someone else to believe.

    It doesn't surprise me anymore, but I spent a lifetime in that environment. I think the first time I got that response, though, it blew my mind.

    I'd want to know... but like I said, there is no possibility of someone giving "definitive for all-time proof," so it's hard to even process the question.
    What do you mean by "people with enough faith" don't listen? Are we talking the how's of life or the why's? I truly believe there's a difference there. Faith and Science (Reason) don't necessarily have that far a distance apart in my mind.

    Faith without Reason is dead (Middle Ages[!!!]), and Reason without Faith is lost (The French Revolution, anyone??).

    We must stop thinking of science being antithetical to an informed faith. The two spheres are not seperate worlds, have not entirely been, nor should they be.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nyota View Post
    I don't understand how, being a Christian and a searcher of Truth, it would be okay to answer "no" to the original question. But, then there's the thought that it is/will always be impossible to prove that God is not real.
    Agreed, but is not an open world view give an allowance to conjecture on the Unknown? What would be better, an "open world" view of the world or a "closed world" view? Cannot being a "searcher of Truth" fall into this open world view...a consistant and methodical questioning of both the how's and the why's of life? Is this not science and faith within their respective realms?


    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Nietzsche would have answered "no!". It's a question of intellectual freedom.
    Ah, Nietzsche!! The lightning rod name for theists everywhere!

    Intellectual freedom and religious freedom, in fact, do go hand in hand. So much so, the lever Jennifer calls for by those of "enough" faith need not apply. For which I say: "To each their own... (and free will for all!)"

    And what of free will? Let's get to that now...


    Quote Originally Posted by Meatbot View Post
    You first define the object in question. Then you look to see if that definition is self-contradictory. If it is, that object can't exist.

    For example, an object that is both a circle and a square cannot exist because it's definition is self-contradictory. However, a flying pink space unicorn CAN exist because it's definition is not self-contradictory.

    It so happens that the most common definition of god is self-contradictory. Omnipotence and omniscience cannot coexist, therefore a god who supposedly possesses both attributes cannot exist.
    Meatbot, could you explain how omnipotence and omniscience cannot coexist? Is this the "grounding" exception? Is this a point to where we can even answer whether time's outcomes can be changed or new truths be discovered? Can we disprove time travel while we're at it, then? Is everything a static world? No...it's an evolving one. This is why the open world assumption is far superior to the all-or-nothing of the closed world view.

    I'm trying to wrap my head around your point here...this is no challenge, just a query. Thanks.


    Jennifer, I hope that wasn't a lever to "force" anything on you (or anyone else for that matter)...I'm merely trying to get to the bottom of this with everyone...together.
    "In the end it is not a matter of reason; it is a matter of love." - St. Thomas More

  8. #28
    Senior Member ENFJ_Catholic's Avatar
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    Well stated, antireconciler. Well stated!

    (John 15:1-2)... Unfortunately so many "faithful" forget this chapter of the Gospel of John...
    "In the end it is not a matter of reason; it is a matter of love." - St. Thomas More

  9. #29
    Senior Member Jeremy's Avatar
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    I don't think it'd really matter either way.. to be honest, it's kind of fun not knowing. I don't believe in a Christian god, but I do believe that there is something out there. Topic for another day though..
    "Can you set me free from this dark inner world? Save me now, last beats in the soul.."

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  10. #30
    Senior Member Ishida's Avatar
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    Yes.
    Even truth wouldn't matter then..
    What a waste of life..

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