So is there anything worse than death/dying?

[juggernaut]

Why isn't it worth all that pain, if the alternative equals nothing?

Nada, zip, niantes!

To me it just seems worth it.

90 years of pain is something
death is nothing
Suppose I die in the first few seconds. I would be none the wiser
Every thought I had in those 90 years would be like a blessing to me.

I don't really expect you or anyone else to understand me though. I've always been a rather odd ball when it comes to death.

Fluffy, isn't nothing just nothing? How can null be worse than anything? It's just not being. If being involves unending pain it' seems that not being is a better choice. Why is this non-existence such a terrible thing?

(On a related note, with a drive to survive like that I do hope you'll reproduce at some point )

 

[Fluffywolf]

Nothing as in not existant scares the crap out of me. It's the absolute worst ever.

Being anything is always better than being nothing for me.

My main drive is to learn and experience new things. To develop myself. To be able to do so in any way is prefered to not being able to do so at all.

(On a related note, with a drive to survive like that I do hope you'll reproduce at some point )

It's not on the horizon, but I'm not aversed to the idea either.

 

[kyuuei]

In response to juggernaut: I think how negative 'nothingness' is is personal and subjective. It can just as easily be asked, "How does being nothing at all compare to existing?" We have life in the first place to exist. Why bother with anything if not-existing sounds like such a promising aspect?

 

[juggernaut]

In response to juggernaut: I think how negative 'nothingness' is is personal and subjective. It can just as easily be asked, "How does being nothing at all compare to existing?" We have life in the first place to exist. Why bother with anything if not-existing sounds like such a promising aspect?

I don't see not existing as a promising prospect. I don't see it as anything at all. It's like God for me, there's nothing there. An absence of everything is neither good nor bad. Those designations only apply to things that have an existence. Once I'm dead, "Monica" will cease to exist in any manner (well except as fertilizer of course..but I don't think that will be the same as the animate me).

 

[Fluffywolf]

Oh, I don't see pain as bad.

I have a firm grasp of good and evil. No worries. But for me pain and suffering is a quintessential part of personal development. In fact, the most horrible experiences in my life are amongst the ones that made the most positive impact on me in terms of personal development.

However, I'm not interested in teaching people through such methods. And I'm not masochistic either. I've just been good at dealing with pain in the past. Both emotional and physical. But everyone will have their own way of dealing with such things. And this happens to be mine.

So for me, in terms of good and bad. Existing is good. Not existing is bad.

 

[juggernaut]

I certainly agree that suffering is an essential part of being fully alive. Nevertheless, if suffering is a good thing then perhaps it's not genuinely pain or not pain of the sort that would be truly unendurable. If you're still seeing a light at the end of the tunnel then you probably haven't reached your limit. Once you reach the limit, real pain begins and that may not be something that looks better than nothing.

Not trying to be difficult here, just trying to understand the badness of non-existence. I sometimes feel a pang of melancholia when I think of the things I would miss if I were no longer here, but once I no longer exist then that won't matter anymore because I will not feel anything at all. What do you see when you see non-existence?

 

[563 740]

Quadraplegic.

 

[heart]

General thoughts, veering away from the thread topic:

I've dealt with chronic pain and such. I don't think it made me stronger or more personally developed than anyone else. It would be nice to think it did, it would give a reason and purpose for it and eliminate some of the sense of "why?", but really many times it's just something a person moves through because they have no other choice but to move forward. I don't always believe the line: "That which does not kill us makes us stronger" It can be true and it can be false depending on the person and the situation.

One may well find the limits of their own personal strength through suffering but one does not always grow tougher for having suffered. It's like a distortion to try and apply this to human nature accross the board.

Different physiologies will have different reactions to pain and the situation of the person who suffers will also bear on how well they struggle with it.

 

[Fluffywolf]

What do you see when you see non-existence?

Nothing. No space, No blackness, no thoughts, no meaning, no purpose, no reason, no identity, no value.

Not even a cold, dark place.

It's hard to imagine nothing (Well, it's basicly impossible) but it is not impossible to extrapolate a meaning from it.


Heart: I think it differs from person to person, and everyone just needs to find their own way I suppose. But for me the saying has never failed me. For both physical and emotional pain. There isn't anything I can not feed on in some way, some form. Every experience is one that counts for me, as minor as it may be.

 

[Into It]

Why isn't it worth all that pain, if the alternative equals nothing?

Nada, zip, niantes!

To me it just seems worth it.

90 years of pain is something
death is nothing

I do not understand this logic.

"Something is better than nothing because it is something."

So...cancer is better than not cancer? Something vs. Nothing is not the same as Positive vs. Negative when dealing with "everything."

Eventually, I will quit debating you because this comes down to our differing opinions which will not - and have no reason to - be changed. But humor me.

 

[Fluffywolf]

I do not understand this logic.

"Something is better than nothing because it is something."

So...cancer is better than not cancer? Something vs. Nothing is not the same as Positive vs. Negative when dealing with "everything."

Eventually, I will quit debating you because this comes down to our differing opinions which will not - and have no reason to - be changed. But humor me.

Hah, no. Not quite what I meant there.

Nothing as in absolute nothing. As in none existing completely.
Not any form of partial nothing.

 

[heart]

Heart: I think it differs from person to person, and everyone just needs to find their own way I suppose. But for me the saying has never failed me. For both physical and emotional pain. There isn't anything I can not feed on in some way, some form. Every experience is one that counts for me, as minor as it may be.

I am certainly not trying to tell you, your own experience. I am just saying that I don't agree that chronic pain always leads to personal development or has any purpose. (To me that's sort of magical thinking to try and see purpose in random, medical suffering).

Emotional pain usually can learned from, we can learn from mistakes when we've done something to bring an emotional situation on ourselves.

But many times physical pain and suffering has no reason. Like I have a female relative who has RA, she's fatigued and in pain all the time and it holds her back from the things she wants to do and she feels deep emotional pain about what that does to her life and to the people around her. I see nothing in the situation making her stronger, the pain makes her weaker. It takes her out of her life. She has no choice but to try and move forward but still it's there sapping her all the time.

 

[Into It]

Nothing as in not existant scares the crap out of me. It's the absolute worst ever.
Being anything is always better than being nothing for me.

My main drive is to learn and experience new things. To develop myself. To be able to do so in any way is prefered to not being able to do so at all.



It's not on the horizon, but I'm not aversed to the idea either.

It's only scary when you percieve it as such. So tell me honestly, starting from fifty years ago, were the last thirteen billion years really so bad? They couldn't have been. They couldn't have been good either.

But if you're not afraid of pain, why are you afraid of neutrality?

 

[Fluffywolf]

A very regretable story. A friend of mine also suffers from a chronic disease. MS. The strength she showed when I was still little inspired me greatly though.

So, even though the disease seems to have no reason, no good effects. In her case, it seemed to have a positive effect on me. In the form of respect and inspiration. I don't mean this in any bad way. I'm just saying, sometimes things do not appear as they truely are.

I'm not justifying such diseases in any way. But I wouldn't go as far as saying there is no point at all to them. There are many things from which we can sap strength. But in the end it is up to the individual and it is not something someone else can help you with.

That said, it is not a perfect world. And I for one am not unhappy about that.

It's only scary when you percieve it as such. So tell me honestly, starting from fifty years ago, were the last thirteen billion years really so bad? They couldn't have been. They couldn't have been good either.

But if you're not afraid of pain, why are you afraid of neutrality?

Yes they were bad as I did not exist in them. I understand we do not see eye to eye but I get the feeling you're just trying to mock me now. I clearly said that non existance is not a form of neutrality to me. It's clear in every one of my posts. In how many words should I say that anything is prefered for me over nothing. No matter what that anything is. Because nothing gets me nowhere, nothing gives me jack all.

I can say it in about 1000 more ways if I could be arsed.

 

[Into It]

1I don't agree that chronic pain always leads to personal development or has any purpose. (To me that's sort of magical thinking to try and see purpose in random, medical suffering).

2But many times physical pain and suffering has no reason.

1.I'm right with you. If an NF can see through it, NTs should certainly be able to (NFs have been known to apply meaning randomly).

2.Maybe we can agree that pain applied to the self intentionally and purposefully will lead to growth. So many monks fasted unt they are not hungry - stand in the heat until their blisters no longer burn. Someone who proceeds with these kinds of rituals purposefully would surely end up stronger than some suburban whitey like me.

 

[heart]

1.I'm right with you. If an NF can see through it, NTs should certainly be able to (NFs have been known to apply meaning randomly).

2.Maybe we can agree that pain applied to the self intentionally and purposefully will lead to growth. So many monks fasted unt they are not hungry - stand in the heat until their blisters no longer burn. Someone who proceeds with these kinds of rituals purposefully would surely end up stronger than some suburban whitey like me.

Yes, a very good point. But when I think about it for a moment here, building up strength in fasting is usually easiest for those with strong adernal glands and a good functioning liver. Helps their systems get used to doing without and allows for cleansing of blood etc. Yet imagine a type I diabetic fasting like that? Or someone with a Hep C? Probably not going to strengthen them.

 

[Halla74]

If there's anything worse than death, then what's worse than death? Why is it worse than death?

Discuss.

Sitting Still!?!?!?!

Arrrrrggghhh!!!!!!

Muthafuookahhhhh!!!!

 

[wolfy]

If there's anything worse than death, then what's worse than death? Why is it worse than death?

Discuss.

I'd imagine having your testicles chopped off would be close.

 

[INTJMom]

If there's anything worse than death, then what's worse than death? Why is it worse than death?

Discuss.

Suffering can be worse than death.

 

[Aerithria]

Keanu Reeves reruns.

Hm, I'd have to say anything that would put you in the permanent position where you could not affect the world in any way, which includes things like solitary confinement, or any medical disease that would allow you to be aware but be unable to communicate.

In general, any permanent, unchanging situation would probably do it for me.