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  1. #11
    Senior Member Wade Wilson's Avatar
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    I believe people are always people. Life is secondary to birth/death. It's in a constant state of forward motion. If life flows like water, beings are akin to bottles. Therefore, I don't think there's a point where they suddenly exist. They've always existed, just without a material form, without singular focus.

    Awareness of surroundings is just a stage in life, not a defining moment.
    I know a girl, she's one of a kind
    But the poor little thing, she's going out of her mind
    There's something you forgot - there's a reason why she's lost
    Cos baby she don't want to be found

  2. #12
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Not a bad answer, but where does that put infants or other members of the species that lack self awareness? How about the severely mentally handi-capped or brain damaged? Your response is, however, quite in line with the majority thinking of U.S. males in the 18-24 age group. Females answered a little differently.
    it would probably be inhumane to not consider them persons, but then again, i do not consider myself a person anymore. from here on out, it becomes a highly philosophical discussion. let me know if you want to listen.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    When it becomes an entity separate from its host. So, at birth.
    curious. what reasons do you put behind this belief?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wade Wilson View Post
    I believe people are always people. Life is secondary to birth/death. It's in a constant state of forward motion. If life flows like water, beings are akin to bottles. Therefore, I don't think there's a point where they suddenly exist. They've always existed, just without a material form, without singular focus.

    Awareness of surroundings is just a stage in life, not a defining moment.
    this rings surprisingly true.
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

  3. #13
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I must stress that my point of view is mostly based on carefully weighed political and societial repurcussions of whatever definition is to be used in law.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentura View Post
    it would probably be inhumane to not consider them persons, but then again, i do not consider myself a person anymore. from here on out, it becomes a highly philosophical discussion. let me know if you want to listen.
    Any discussion of personhood is always going to be highly philosophical, regardless of what definition is ultimately settled upon for reasons of practicality. That's why I put this thread here.

    I'm always willing to listen.

  5. #15
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    i believe the beginning of personhood is when the sperm fertilizes the egg. 99% of the time, when this process up to the point of birth....is left to nature, a new person walks the earth.

    i also believe that the father should also restrain himself from drugs and alcohol during this phase. i have no idea of why, except maybe karma, fairness or good psychology. And NO, i'm not livin in leave it to beaver land. i'm well aware that fatherless situations are quite common. Not refering to you with that juggernaut, just folks who may think i'm not aware of the reality of fatherless scenerios
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  6. #16
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentura View Post
    curious. what reasons do you put behind this belief?
    Because up until that point, it shares all systems with a host body. It is not independent - it may as well be a tumor. At birth, it still needs to be taken care of, but its life is not physically dependent upon, or symbiotic with, a specific host.

  7. #17
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    A woman should not be forced to carry a pregnancy that poses lethal consequences to her own health because *willingly* allowing a woman (or man, for that matter) to die under any circumstance that could be reasonably prevented is morally more wrong than terminating a pregnancy. However, I don't think that terminating a pregnancy as a form of birth control is okay, either.

    A woman who miscarries usually miscarries due to things beyond her control i.e. viruses, genetic conditions, other random health factors. However, women who smoke, drink and engage in other types of risky behavior during pregnancy should be strongly discouraged if they plan to carry the pregnancy to term. . Women who smoke and drink while saying they're actually going to have the baby make me physically ill, but that's just my personal feelings on the manner. I also don't think fathers should smoke around the mother while she's pregnant, and optimally would not be drinking or doing drugs while trying to conceive.

    My personal feelings also indicate to me that I would never have an abortion unless my own life was seriously in danger. Although "humanity" may not technically begin at conception, life does. I don't even like to set up mouse traps or step on slugs, so I certainly couldn't have an abortion...unless my own life was seriously threatened, and by "threatened" I don't mean inconvenienced.

  8. #18
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    Any discussion of personhood is always going to be highly philosophical, regardless of what definition is ultimately settled upon for reasons of practicality. That's why I put this thread here.

    I'm always willing to listen.
    i'll write something in a bit, i need time to relocate my thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Because up until that point, it shares all systems with a host body. It is not independent - it may as well be a tumor. At birth, it still needs to be taken care of, but its life is not physically dependent upon, or symbiotic with, a specific host.
    that's a well protected logical statement. i assume you define birth as being released from the host body?
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Because up until that point, it shares all systems with a host body. It is not independent - it may as well be a tumor. At birth, it still needs to be taken care of, but its life is not physically dependent upon, or symbiotic with, a specific host.

    How about fetuses that are developed enough to sustain life outside the womb but have not yet been born? Aren't nursing infants dependent on their hosts?

  10. #20
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    When the newborn first takes air into it's lungs, breathes on its own, then it seems to be a very defined independent self. There's a lot of debate and gray areas before this but this seems to be a defining line that I'd have trouble denying.

    When a unborn child would be able to breathe on its own outside the mother's body but just hasn't yet been born, it's death in the womb due to attack upon the mother's body should count as a murder/assualt. Parents should be able to sue for emotional damages in loses of child at this stage, etc.

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