User Tag List

First 1234 Last

Results 11 to 20 of 34

  1. #11
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Posts
    664

    Default

    I need to research Hawkins, but I do not believe in unconditional love. That only .04% feel it is not surprising, all love can be unloved. It is a scientific test that cannot feasibly be done. That is, if unconditional love means love regardless of what conditions appear in the future.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    MBTI
    istp
    Posts
    1,962

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    I need to research Hawkins, but I do not believe in unconditional love. That only .04% feel it is not surprising, all love can be unloved. It is a scientific test that cannot feasibly be done. That is, if unconditional love means love regardless of what conditions appear in the future.
    i just thought it was interesting, wasnt using it as supporting evidence or whatever.

    yeah, it's difficult to understand because it is like nothing else we know.

  3. #13
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    8,828

    Default

    Love is an illusion we comfort ourselves with. There's no such thing.

    The closest thing to "love" is a form of chemical comfort that results from familiarity with particular people. But what we call love is nothing more than an addiction and the draw of habit. We're just strongly inclined to make more of it than it is.

    ...

    What? I'm in kind of a cynical mood right now.

  4. #14
    Banned
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    1,009

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    i dont think anyone would suggest love is some hocus-pocus emotion that we experience without explanation. however, the purpose is not so easy to recognize, i have yet to see Darwinian science explain unconditional love, because by definition, it is the exact opposite of survival of the fittest.

    i dont think it's as simple as love is love... there are degrees, just as there are degrees of what people will do and sacrifice for the ones they love for nothing. "true" love is often mimic'd but very rarely achieved... even selfless acts are often motivated by the feeling they give us, it is extremely rare for someone to not only recognize but to sacrifice for someone else entirely because it would benefit that person. if we do not even experience the slightest sense of pleasure, or even if we were to experience negative feelings like agony and physical pain, then why would we do it, just because it is the ideal thing to do considering everything aside from yourself and your feelings? such self sacrifice for others seems impossible to understand... unexplainable. it is humbling considering the levels of selfishness humans are capable of. such a thing is unthinkable to the world we live in.


    From Wiki...

    "Unconditional love", according to Dr. David R. Hawkins' map of consciousness, is reported to calibrate at a level of 500 on an arbitrary scale of 1 to 1000. This is an exponential scale where 700 to 1,000 represents Enlightenment. From Power vs. Force by Hawkins: "This (unconditional Love) is the level of true happiness, but although the world is fascinated with the subject of Love and all viable religions calibrate at 500 or over, it's interesting to note that only .04 percent if the world's population ever reaches this level of evolution of consciousness".
    Hawkins goes on to say that "As love becomes more and more unconditional, it begins to be experienced as inner joy (540)".
    Professor Mario Beauregard, from Montreal University's centre for research into neurophysiology and cognition, used MRI to study active areas of the brain of people, who were most likely to experience unconditional love. Subjects were asked to call to mind feelings of unconditional love. Researches saw 7 active areas in the brain. Three of those areas were similar to regions in the brain that became active when it came to romantic love. The other four were different, which means that the feeling of love for someone without the need of being rewarded is different from the feeling of romantic love.
    In his study professor Beauregard found that some brain areas that turned on when a person felt unconditional love also engaged in discharging dopamine, chemical that plays a role in sensing pleasure. [1]
    There have been entire textbooks written on this subject, which do exactly that. There are many very clearly written, easily accessible tomes that offer beautiful Darwinian explanations of love. You can start here for those that are devoted specifically to evolution and love.

    Amazon.com: evolutionary psychology and love

    There are also countless biology and evolutionary psychology textbooks that cover this topic. I'll be happy to provide you with another list if you like.

    There is no such thing as truly unconditional love. You may not be consciously aware of the conditions, because they're chemical or instinctual if you like (instincts are driven by chemistry so that may be redundant however), but they're there. This is why we look at brain chemistry in individuals with pathological behaviors, first. You cannot separate psychological/emotional states from chemistry. This is one of the many reasons I am puzzled when I hear someone with strong F tendencies say that Ts are cold and unfeeling. We all come with very similar chemical packages unless something goes terribly wrong either genetically or environmentally, so it strikes me as odd to think of anyone as truly unfeeling. The only difference is in the way these things get expressed to the outside world and how we view them. I am happy to recognize that it is all chemistry, because it is. It doesn't diminish my experience in any way. The qualia is the same either way. I just happen to be aware of the material cause behind the phenomenal experience.

  5. #15
    movin melodies kiddykat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    4, 7
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    1,115

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I believe love comes from the ego. You love your offspring (in the most basic sense) because it is a piece of yourself and will ensure your immortality.

    The dopamine and other hormones that release with sexual attraction/gratification makes you feel "love" so you will want to continue to reproduce. Birth is a very painful process and I think this is nature's way of making it "fun".
    ^I love!

    Quote Originally Posted by coberst View Post
    What do you judge to be the primordial animal source (assuming an acceptance of the validity of Darwin’s theory of natural selection) for the emotion of love in humans?
    From a darwanistic view? I think it's conditional. If we're talking about discriminating our preferences, based purely on external sources- such as money, looks, & status? Then I don't see how love correlates to the notion where there are unconditional responses.. because it simply seems superficial/inauthentic/retrained/confined.

    From a general human perspective? I think that love is unconditional, when we look at the nature of human beings. For instance, in a time of need/war/famine, etc. I tend to think that people would rather lend a helping hand towards one another, because that is our nature- one's own happiness also equates to anothers. Love in this sense, is more freeing, genuine, visceral, and instinctive. It's a collective feeling of joy I guess..

    In terms of animals? I see a similar pattern, depending on the type of animal. If you've ever seen the segment of the walruses who fight off other predators, like big white polar bears, they all stick together to defend one another. That in itself is a form of love, isn't it? Their entire survival as a species depends on one another? That act in itself, is pretty pure & natural.

    IDK.. Random thoughts..

  6. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Posts
    336

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I believe love comes from the ego. You love your offspring (in the most basic sense) because it is a piece of yourself and will ensure your immortality.

    The dopamine and other hormones that release with sexual attraction/gratification makes you feel "love" so you will want to continue to reproduce. Birth is a very painful process and I think this is nature's way of making it "fun".

    The ego is our command center; it is the “internal gyroscope” and creator of time for the human. It controls the individual; especially it controls individual’s response to the external environment. It keeps the individual independent from the environment by giving the individual time to think before acting. It is the device that other animal do not have and thus they instinctively respond immediately to the world.

    The id is our animal self. It is the human without the ego control center. The id is reactive life and the ego changes that reactive life into delayed thoughtful life. The ego is also the timer that provides us with a sense of yesterday, today, and tomorrow. By doing so it makes us into philosophical beings conscious of our self as being separate from the ‘other’ and placed in a river of time with a terminal point—death. This time creation allows us to become creatures responding to symbolic reality that we alone create.

    As a result of the id there is a “me” to which everything has a focus of being. The most important job the ego has is to control anxiety that paradoxically the ego has created. With a sense of time there comes a sense of termination and with this sense of death comes anxiety that the ego embraces and gives the “me” time to consider how not to have to encounter anxiety.

    Evidence indicates that there is an “intrinsic symbolic process” is some primates. Such animals may be able to create in memory other events that are not presently going on. “But intrinsic symbolization is not enough. In order to become a social act, the symbol must be joined to some extrinsic mode; there must exist an external graphic mode to convey what the individual has to express…but it also shows how separate are the worlds we live in, unless we join our inner apprehensions to those of others by means of socially agreed symbols.”

    “What they needed for a true ego was a symbolic rallying point, a personal and social symbol—an “I”, in order to thoroughly unjumble himself from his world the animal must have a precise designation of himself. The “I”, in a word, has to take shape linguistically…the self (or ego) is largely a verbal edifice…The ego thus builds up a world in which it can act with equanimity, largely by naming names.” The primate may have a brain large enough for “me” but it must go a step further that requires linguistic ability that permits an “I” that can develop controlled symbols with “which to put some distance between him and immediate internal and external experience.”

    I conclude from this that many primates have the brain that is large enough to be human but in the process of evolution the biological apparatus that makes speech possible was the catalyst that led to the modern human species. The ability to emit more sophisticated sounds was the stepping stone to the evolution of wo/man. This ability to control the vocal sounds promoted the development of the human brain.

    Ideas and quotes from “Birth and Death of Meaning”—Ernest Becker

  7. #17
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    MBTI
    istp
    Posts
    1,962

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    There have been entire textbooks written on this subject, which do exactly that. There are many very clearly written, easily accessible tomes that offer beautiful Darwinian explanations of love. You can start here for those that are devoted specifically to evolution and love.

    Amazon.com: evolutionary psychology and love

    There are also countless biology and evolutionary psychology textbooks that cover this topic. I'll be happy to provide you with another list if you like.
    again, i wouldnt suppose that it cant be explained, nor that there are countless benefits that could be graphed scientifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    There is no such thing as truly unconditional love.
    i believe love can and has existed unconditionally of constraints existing on earth alone.

    of course, that is always the point of contention... once we are treading on grounds where there is simply no evidence to say conclusively one way or another, what does someone believe? all that is left to question is our own motivation to find out.

    what can i say, i am a man who cant ignore probability for the sake of convenience.

  8. #18
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Enneagram
    7w8
    Socionics
    ENTp
    Posts
    6,387

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by coberst View Post
    Ideas and quotes from “Birth and Death of Meaning”—Ernest Becker
    I'm not quite sure why you posted this lengthy response to my tongue-in-cheek post. Can you clarify?

  9. #19
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    8,470

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by juggernaut View Post
    It's all oxytocin folks. We're nothing but a bunch of soft, squishy big-brained apes. We have no natural defense other than our brains and our large social units. Big brains take a long time to mature and that takes serious commitment to the offspring from both parents (males need to have that bond in order to be willing to commit resources). If we didn't have that chemical bond, we'd probably walk and leave the young to become lion food. Without love we'd be toast.
    You're so romantic. Everything may be reducible ultimately to some basic chemical process, but this is not what makes things interesting.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  10. #20
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ENTP
    Posts
    8,470

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    In answer to your question (it's not the one you wanted) the answer has to be:

    1 John 4:19
    We love because He [God] first loved us.
    NIV

    It may not be politically correct at this time to voice such things, but it is true nonetheless.
    That is interesting. Seems like a concept of love must exist first before it can be created or arise materialistically. Platonic duality.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

Similar Threads

  1. Where does morality come from?
    By themightyfetus in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 12-28-2015, 05:33 PM
  2. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 04-27-2013, 04:55 PM
  3. Where does reason come from?
    By coberst in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-03-2009, 06:54 AM
  4. Where did “mid-life crisis” come from?
    By coberst in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-29-2009, 05:35 AM
  5. where does Types come from? is it really a 'mystery' or 'God-given' ?
    By niki in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 04-13-2009, 04:28 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO