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  1. #1
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Default Deception and God

    I hunger for refutations of the following since my present company was unable to provide me with them.


    Is not anything misrepresentative of reality a deception? Perhaps then, a deception is not good or bad per se, if in the instance of its being put into place naturally or by accident it misrepresents. Certainly though, if a deception is designed and set it place with a clear purpose, its designer is a deceiver. And a deceiver could only be good if he misrepresents something wicked or harmful, in this he is a protector. Even then, to label his actions good or bad relies on the situation and depends on the observer; it is a debate of ethics for another time. If a deceiver reveals what is true and then conceals evidence of its proof, surely he means only to confuse. Confusion is a state that is most positive only if all reality is harmful. In confusion, like madness or delusion, reality cannot be grasped, and while the state itself is not positive, it may be a lesser of two evils. In all cases then, confusion is evil to some degree. Thus one who intentionally confuses is a particularly wicked specie of deceiver.

    A particularly low way to confuse would be to create a good deal of evidence that leads to Conclusion A, while saying that the less reasonable Conclusion B is true. To sharpen this character’s fangs, we could say that he delights in his power to punish those who choose to believe in Conclusion A.

    Of course, this is applicable to the Christian God and his many inconsistencies. I hesitate to give a list of examples, but I will say briefly that it does not appear, as a reasonable conclusion, that planets appeared a day after light, or that animals were created after plants in the same fixed increment of time that man was created after animals. The most rudimentary geology shows that the layers of rock that constitute the earth’s surface were created at very different times. The fossils within also provide evidence that the earth is quite old. Cain and Abel’s geneaology, provided in Genesis, shows that the earth is very new. Since the scientific evidence of an old earth is so abundant, most Christians today believe in the ‘Gap Theory,’ which states that the “days” were really much longer than days and that there were gaps between them. So, they take Genesis as a metaphor, though the rest of the Old Testament, which is not quite as easily or obviously refuted to the Christian, is still widely regarded as literal. If even one statement of God’s is a lie, then all we thought we knew of him crumbles.

    The Christian may say that my argument is fallible because believing in the God of the Bible is as reasonable as if not more reasonable than rejecting him. If I thought that this argument was decent, I would spend more time refuting it, but experience has taught me that proponents of this argument relinquish it relatively quickly in reasonable debate, and then they turn to “faith.”

    It may be worth mentioning as a side-note that if we are supposed to believe in God through faith, then reason is not the gift I thought it was. It is a curse and a mockery. As any chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so faith is only as valuable as it is supported by reason. As the strongest link in the chain is an irrelevant matter, so too is faith irrelevant as its only value is awarded by reason. For instance, a man drives off a cliff and may have faith that he will not die when he hits the ground. This faith would be weak and of little value, and in fact no man would have this faith, because he would analyze what he knows about blunt force trauma, and his faith would be near worthless, if faith can be said to have any value at all. My faith in a round earth is worth more. I have not ever seen the entire planet at once, except through photographs that I cannot be sure were real. But I have also heard stories of planes flying in a straight line and eventually arriving right where they left off. My reason tells me the earth is round; there is enough evidence to convince me. My faith in this could be considered of more value than the faith of the previous example. Since the values I am ascribing to faith come directly from the validity of the reason used to assess the situations to which the faith pertains, the value is only stamped onto faith: faith truly has no value. And so, anyone who falls back on faith is only doing so because reason fails them.

    So is God a deceiver? Or is this 'God' simply not God?

  2. #2
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    Ignosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    if there truly is a god, what do you think your chances are of fully understanding what he/she/it/them/all is? god, as we treat him, is a personification. nothing more, nothing less. religious and anti religious people have not understood it yet: if god truly exists, then we must ascend beyond humanity to understand all.
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

  3. #3
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    So is God a deceiver? Or is this 'God' simply not God?
    deceit isnt a necessary element to what you're saying, but perversion is. the question is, if there is a God, was such perversion his doing or ours? who is more likely to err, humans or an omniscient being?

    isnt what we often, from our limited perspective, often view as inconsistencies merely a lack of understanding of connecting reasons we dont see or understand? it is an assumption to say they simply dont exist.

    which is more enlightening to us, an in depth explanation of a design with intricacy far behind human comprehension, or the relevant whole? that is, if we recognize it as true. what motivates us to know everything and thus doubt what we do not... to be omniscient... to be like God would, when we are not God? if God existed and created our universe, does science disprove him or attempt to uncover and decipher the engineering behind the universe? science disproves the ignorant not the omniscient.

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    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    It may be worth mentioning as a side-note that if we are supposed to believe in God through faith, then reason is not the gift I thought it was. It is a curse and a mockery. As any chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so faith is only as valuable as it is supported by reason. As the strongest link in the chain is an irrelevant matter, so too is faith irrelevant as its only value is awarded by reason.
    Interestingly, a lot of Christians might agree with this. Why do you think it was called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? A snake represents cunning?

    Basically, the hidden idea in the story was that reason/logic was the cause of sin. A curse that arose from eating the apple, so to speak. The idea is that pain and death are the price of knowledge.

    Personally, I think whoever wrote the story was a Feeling type who hadn't properly integrated Thinking into their psyche, and projected "evil" qualities onto it. The moral of the story is basically "Ignorance and obedience is bliss." Not a moral I like, honestly.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Interestingly, a lot of Christians might agree with this. Why do you think it was called the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? A snake represents cunning?

    Basically, the hidden idea in the story was that reason/logic was the cause of sin. A curse that arose from eating the apple, so to speak.

    Personally, I think whoever wrote the story was a Feeling type who hadn't properly integrated Thinking into their psyche, and projected "evil" qualities onto it. The moral of the story is basically "Ignorance and obedience is bliss." Not a moral I like, honestly.
    i think the idea is actually one of purpose, and if the difference between humans and God could be explained as knowledge, that humans were tempted out of our place and purpose by the ultimate lie. if humans had choice but were innocent and without knowledge of good and evil, i.e., the full spectrum of our own ability, then the deceit was the failure to mention that we don't have the necessary knowledge to understand the fundamental problems behind the harmful end of that spectrum, 'like God' but not actually God. reason is still a tool we use to rule the earth. the hardest part is the purpose of the existence of the tree itself, but i think that could be explained as the entity which separates us from God, at least in its intention, because we do not and should not have everything.

    presumably, ever since, humanity has struggled with the same lie and grasping for the knowledge required to become the god of our world, it is the root of ultimately all that tempts man, money, power, fame, etc. of course, by now, such choices are much more shrouded by prevalent reality and harder to avoid.

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    I believe in God because I've seen a few people that made a mockery of people to embarrass them out of using their skills or talents and were willing to poison their relationships and took advantage of knowing that they depended on these people
    by using subtle threats that they would turn those people agains them if they didn't comply with their expectations and use their skills to make them look good get what they had coming. Now I understand why the bible teaches minding your own bus-
    iness and staying away from people that gossip because he knows how to handle
    things...maybe that's why irony is so popular in fiction because it happens in real life.
    you have all the power you need if you dare to look
    for it.

  7. #7
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    I hunger for refutations of the following since my present company was unable to provide me with them.[...]
    Famously, someone somewhere once refuted someone by saying, "I refute thee thus," and kicked him in the shin. As I recall it was a refutation of solipsism. But anyway....

    This is a fairly big if (because I skipped a lot of the convolutions and made some assumptions), but if I understand the text correctly, you mean a lovely and effective fiction is good if it is produced by someone with suitable knowledge of the dangers that will be avoided if the fiction is accepted, and proves the goodness of the deceiver. Thus, God, a gigantic and effective self-made fiction, is worth loving. And having faith in.


    And generally speaking, coincidentally, it's okay for people to lie to people they love because they love them, and one should love them back for lying to one in one's best interest.


    So it's a really good argument if God is ENFP and really doesn't want to show too much of His true heart.

  8. #8
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    the question is, if there is a God, was such perversion his doing or ours? who is more likely to err, humans or an omniscient being?
    In other words, confusion is often a projection if we think of it as actually being IN what we do not understand, rather than a result of our own lack of clarity. There's something to the idea that confusion is always a projection, if we want to say that the universe follows a rational structure, in other words, an order which can be captured in conceptual thought. There's something, of course, to the idea that everything can be grasped by conceptual thought, for there is nothing before us which is not concept to us, and it is contradictory to point to anything, through thought, which is not conceptual, rather trivially. So we conclude from the beginning that the confusion is always our own if we see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    I hunger for refutations of the following since my present company was unable to provide me with them.
    ...
    So is God a deceiver? Or is this 'God' simply not God?
    Good post. I find your arguments well thought out.

    I'll try to understand what you've written, since it is a lot to grasp all at once, as an argument from the hiddenness of God first, from the scientific incredibility of the Christian creation story, literally or as metaphor second, and from the inconsistency of the reason/faith dichotomy last.

    I don't know, should we take it each part at a time?

    What can we say about the hiddenness of God? Even if it is true that the hiddenness of God, whatever He amounts to, is a product of our OWN confusion, as it would seem from Greyscale's comment, the question remains, why should God make it difficult enough for us to become confused in the first place? Why not grant us greater clarity from the outset? It appears to be a kind of malice, almost, that we should have to struggle to understand. In this way, we can view the hiddenness of God as a variant of the greater problem of evil, formulated by Epicurus.

    Why should God permit pain and strife?

    I don't know, what do you think? I've talked so much about this by now I'd rather just listen. If you want a rational ear who can follow your arguments, PM me. I'd enjoy that.
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

  9. #9
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Personally, I think whoever wrote the story was a Feeling type who hadn't properly integrated Thinking into their psyche, and projected "evil" qualities onto it. The moral of the story is basically "Ignorance and obedience is bliss." Not a moral I like, honestly.
    Actually, you could be REALLY wrong on that.

    It's not an illogical deduction in the LEAST to promote trust and obedience... IF and only if the object of one's devotion is perfect, omnipotent, omniscience, and benevolent.

    But that's the assumption in this faith, isn't it? That God is all those things?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #10
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Famously, someone somewhere once refuted someone by saying, "I refute thee thus," and kicked him in the shin. As I recall it was a refutation of solipsism. But anyway....
    Samuel Johnson "refuting" George Berkeley? (Do I win?)
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

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