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  1. #11
    Your time is gonna come. Oom's Avatar
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    God may be a deceiver and may not. A better question is to ask if he/she exists. If god is absolute, and all knowing, omniscient as some say, then why would it need to make the universe at all? Did it make life to see what would happen if beings were given free reign over their destinies?

    If it did create us as some sort of test, then it is not omniscient because an all knowing being would have already known the conclusion of the experiment. Nothing else effectively needs to exist if all knowledge is contained in one location.

  2. #12
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Actually, you could be REALLY wrong on that.

    It's not an illogical deduction in the LEAST to promote trust and obedience... IF and only if the object of one's devotion is perfect, omnipotent, omniscience, and benevolent.
    Well, I probably am. But I still liked the idea enough to express it.

    I definitely don't like blind trust and obedience, even in that kind of situation. It seems to subtract something important from being self-aware, from being human. That's just my own values, though. I've never appreciated faith at all, so it's hard to for me to see things from that perspective.

    But that's the assumption in this faith, isn't it? That God is all those things?
    Yeah, it does. That's probably why it's so hard for me to understand.

    Gnosticism takes a different approach, I think. It makes a lot more sense to me subjectively than the traditional interpretations. That probably says something about the difference between how they see reality, and how I tend to see it, though I'm not sure what.

  3. #13
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I think there is a lot of deception in the bible and religions. But all due to the doing of humans themselves, and not an omnipotent being. :P
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  4. #14
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post

    And generally speaking, coincidentally, it's okay for people to lie to people they love because they love them, and one should love them back for lying to one in one's best interest.


    So it's a really good argument if God is ENFP and really doesn't want to show too much of His true heart.

    In regards to the lies, YES, a lie to avoid pain is no evil. But why should the world be created in such a way that a lie would be necessary to protect one from it? Obviously it's more complicated than that and depends on the circumstance, though. And whether it is better to believe in what is true if it is painful than a lie that is not, that's just a whole 'nother discussion, and one that I haven't even been able to formulate an opinion on yet. Actually, I e-mailed bluewing his opinion on this question last night.

    But the assumption from the Bible is that God is all good, which is the reason for the argument in the first place.


    And not only does God not show much of His true heart, but the rest of his anatomy as well.


    But friend, I do indeed reveal my true self, and this is in fact the second time that you have claimed within a thread of mine that an ENFP would not do so. Judging by your many posts, I would guess you've said this more than twice. I pity your experiences with ENFP's, but even more than that, I pity the ENFP's who you know, reluctant to reveal themselves. As an ENFP, I should say that I would feel withered and alone if I did not feel I was understood and known for who I am.

    And on that note, being unable or unwilling to reveal your true self is a poor, undesirable quality. If you notice that you are ascribing such a negative characteristic to an entire type, rethink, rethink, rethink.

    Now, as for the statement about refutation, I think it was a good idea, because I got 12 responses to my argument, and my argument was not particularly compelling. But yes, for that kind of statement I do deserve a kick in the shin, though I never understood that [anecdote?] How is a kick in the shin a refutation to an argument, I wonder?

  5. #15
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    In regards to the lies, YES, a lie to avoid pain is no evil.
    Wanna bet?

    It sets another value, perhaps a whole 'nother set of values, above my own, my own being that I want to, and will, know what is true. I call it a value. It's more like a need. Y'all wanna cut me off from what I need?

    But why should the world be created in such a way that a lie would be necessary to protect one from it?
    Because God is a deceiver?

    Or faith is at its core an accepted and valued contradiction: I cannot see it but I believe it, I cannot touch it but I love it, I don't know that He is there, but I know He is there.

    But friend, I do indeed reveal my true self, and this is in fact the second time that you have claimed within a thread of mine that an ENFP would not do so. Judging by your many posts, I would guess you've said this more than twice. I pity your experiences with ENFP's, but even more than that, I pity the ENFP's who you know, reluctant to reveal themselves. As an ENFP, I should say that I would feel withered and alone if I did not feel I was understood and known for who I am.

    And on that note, being unable or unwilling to reveal your true self is a poor, undesirable quality. If you notice that you are ascribing such a negative characteristic to an entire type, rethink, rethink, rethink.
    You know I'm INTJ, right? I'm about as likely to toss out one or two experiences by themselves and call them truth as I am to sacrifice truth for good feeling. The ENFP reluctance to reveal is an ENFP-made statement. There's lots like it on this site made by other ENFPs. Which is not proof either. It does contribute to an intuition, however. Which intuition does not, btw, preclude desire to finally reveal, just states that wariness exists.

    And wariness like that might even modify perception of value systems.

    And make a picture of God. As in, if God were to love, how would God love? What is God's love like? Is it like mine?


    Which is the kick in the shin referred to.




    Eee, look at me, coming on strong. But my intuition's telling me I got something wrong there... spelled it out wrong, didn't hear enough from the source... (And that part about not using one or two experiences to call truth... that's gonna come back at me...)

    So, what is God's love like?

  6. #16
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Wanna bet?

    It sets another value, perhaps a whole 'nother set of values, above my own, my own being that I want to, and will, know what is true. I call it a value. It's more like a need. Y'all wanna cut me off from what I need?



    Because God is a deceiver?

    Or faith is at its core an accepted and valued contradiction: I cannot see it but I believe it, I cannot touch it but I love it, I don't know that He is there, but I know He is there.



    You know I'm INTJ, right? I'm about as likely to toss out one or two experiences by themselves and call them truth as I am to sacrifice truth for good feeling. The ENFP reluctance to reveal is an ENFP-made statement. There's lots like it on this site made by other ENFPs. Which is not proof either. It does contribute to an intuition, however. Which intuition does not, btw, preclude desire to finally reveal, just states that wariness exists.

    And wariness like that might even modify perception of value systems.

    And make a picture of God. As in, if God were to love, how would God love? What is God's love like? Is it like mine?


    Which is the kick in the shin referred to.




    Eee, look at me, coming on strong. But my intuition's telling me I got something wrong there... spelled it out wrong, didn't hear enough from the source... (And that part about not using one or two experiences to call truth... that's gonna come back at me...)

    So, what is God's love like?
    Sorry, I don't know how to split quotes.

    KALACH:Wanna bet?

    It sets another value, perhaps a whole 'nother set of values, above my own, my own being that I want to, and will, know what is true. I call it a value. It's more like a need. Y'all wanna cut me off from what I need?


    It's almost as if you ignored the rest of my paragraph...

    "Obviously it's more complicated than that and depends on the circumstance, though. And whether it is better to believe in what is true if it is painful than a lie that is not, that's just a whole 'nother discussion, and one that I haven't even been able to formulate an opinion on yet."

    So obviously i wouldn't "bet" against you as I haven't formulated an opinion on the issue yet, but if you prefer truth to your detriment, be my guest. In such an instance, hiding the truth from you would be malicious. But what, then, is the value of truth that brings sadness? Truth is sought not for its own sake, but because those who seek it yearn for the feeling of enlightenment- of a full understanding of the picture. If the picture is grotesque, though, I would not force one to bear it, if I felt the opposite would be in his better interest. And I wouldn't feel guilt because 'lying' is against a commandment, I strive for virtue by reaching my own conclusions, born of my own contemplation, and have no reason to adopt others' dogma. Those rules of morality would only govern my actions, and have no bearing on actual morality. Moving on-

    KALACH:The ENFP reluctance to reveal is an ENFP-made statement. There's lots like it on this site made by other ENFPs.

    Fair enough. I am aware that you are not ignorant enough to think that this applies to all members of the type (if you are so ignorant, correct me), and you must be allowed to make such general and global statements, otherwise we wouldn't be able to talk about type in a practical manner at all. So let's forget about this and I'll put my loaded arrow back in the quiver.

    KALACH:Or faith is at its core an accepted and valued contradiction: I cannot see it but I believe it, I cannot touch it but I love it, I don't know that He is there, but I know He is there.

    Anorexia and diamond rings taught me that delusion is a disease spread most easily among large masses, and what is accepted and valued, outside of the scientific community in which value has no place, tends to be unreasonable and in many cases stupid. Only since so many people share this delusion can one say that she both "knows and does not know" something, admit that it is a contradiction, and persist that the ONLY thing that contradicts itself and is real is faith. At the moment, I am both typing on my computer in Colorado and standing right behind you. Not reasonable.


    KALACH:What is God's love like? Is it like mine?

    Kalach, I cannot fathom what your love is like as I have not witnessed it yet.

    The same goes for God.

    But I will speculate, meaninglessly I might add, for the sake of this conversation that I am thoroughly enjoying.

    God created everything. So we need not imagine what his love would be like in our present universe. We can imagine a different universe, in which we were not people who have pain and selfishness psychologically engrained as evolutionary imperatives. We are not people at all. We are some different kind of being, and we felt only love, only happiness. And this love is nothing like your love, Kalach, it is much much stronger, more constant, more effective and you are replete with it. It is twice as strong, no, a hundred, NO! a trillion times as strong, and as we are not human, we are of a physiology that can take such emotion.

    I have to take a break, more soon.

  7. #17
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Do you see what happens, people? Do you see now?!

    Let this be a warning to you all. You literally do have to wait until they're ready to say what's really on their mind.



    Luckily, the avalanche of words is so much easier on the ears when it's written.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Do you see what happens, people? Do you see now?!

    Let this be a warning to you all. You literally do have to wait until they're ready to say what's really on their mind.



    Luckily, the avalanche of words is so much easier on the ears when it's written.

    I may use many words, but I have much to say. Truthfully, your response is disappointing in its brevity! I half-expected and wholly hoped for a defense of faith, (which I still welcome) or a dissection of my statements, exposing ill logic and delivering several kicks to my shins.

    If this is what you were talking about to begin with, about ENFPs hiding how they feel... My first post was an argument. It was a logical progression of truths. My feelings were not relevant, but they were far from hidden. Perhaps you do not see the feelings that are implied and not said, which is fairly common with INTJ's I have heard and observed. My brother is an INTJ and I've been in a cabin with 3 INTJ's for the past week. This is something I have noticed recently more than ever because of the situation I'm in (I didn't use the word predicament!) A weak Fi would be the only explanation I could offer. Is your Fi weak? That would magnify this problem. But those with strong Fi have their passions swirling within, but sharing them is a process that requires expending a bit of extra energy, but I believe that most ENFPs act in accordance with their beliefs. They must, this is the nature of Fi and authenticity is a main focus of all NF's. So I guess I just still don't agree with or understand this claim unfortunately.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Into It's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    I may use many words, but I have much to say. Truthfully, your response is disappointing in its brevity! I half-expected and wholly hoped for a defense of faith, (which I still welcome) or a dissection of my statements, exposing ill logic and delivering several kicks to my shins.

    If this is what you were talking about to begin with, about ENFPs hiding how they feel... My first post was an argument. It was a logical progression of truths. My feelings were not relevant, but they were far from hidden. Perhaps you do not see the feelings that are implied and not said, which is fairly common with INTJ's I have heard and observed. My brother is an INTJ and I've been in a cabin with 3 INTJ's for the past week. This is something I have noticed recently more than ever because of the situation I'm in (I didn't use the word predicament!) A weak Fi would be the only explanation I could offer. Is your Fi weak? That would magnify this problem. But those with strong Fi have their passions swirling within, but sharing them is a process that requires expending a bit of extra energy, but I believe that most ENFPs act in accordance with their beliefs. They must, this is the nature of Fi and authenticity is a main focus of all NF's. So I guess I just still don't agree with or understand this claim unfortunately.
    Edit: This girl drives me karazy! In person we would be fast friends.

  10. #20
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Into It View Post
    I may use many words, but I have much to say. Truthfully, your response is disappointing in its brevity! I half-expected and wholly hoped for a defense of faith, (which I still welcome) or a dissection of my statements, exposing ill logic and delivering several kicks to my shins.
    Well see, you're using the "flurry" technique, so named for its similarity to a snowstorm. It's a method of proving something, and everyone does remain unsure of what exactly, but it works by bullshittin' til they quittin'.

    And there's no particular payoff working through the snowstorm this early, this early being before you've formulated a statement of your deeper point, and anyone concluding too much is going to have the carpet yanked out when you follow up with another revelation, so while we wait we can haz sum laffs and point some fingers. And toss in a few focusers every so often. Like,...

    So, what was the love of God, again?

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