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  1. #51
    your resident asshole
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    1. As I said in my last post "educated people" argument does not mean anything.
    Then why were you trying to argue that there's a correlation between "exposure to information and athiesm?" By "exposure to information" do you not mean intelligence?


    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one
    2. Yes, but there is a lot of traces that makse God unlikely.
    Are you speaking of God in the Christian sense, or God in the general sense?

  2. #52
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    1) I never said you were ignorant.

    2) I'm not taking it personally. I already know how you are from an earlier thread. It's you, not me, I know.

    3) There is no correalation between education and exposure to information and atheism because Catholic priests and bishops were for centuries some of the most educated people in the world, and to this day earn PhDs.

    4) Your assumption that intelligence without education is useless is exactly why you and I will never, ever have a productive conversation. The fact that you cannot even think outside of the box enough to realize that there have been intelligent individuals who have done amazing things in this world without a formal education (not to mention all the other little guys who just live healthy, happy lives as farmers and such) lets me know that you'll never understand where I'm coming from. Ever.
    1. Well, you said
    There are highly educated and intelligent people who believe in god, and ignorant people of average intelligence who don't.
    what could indicate that you think that I am ignorant.

    2.Good.

    3. The fact that Bishops were most educated people for ceturies could mean that they were privileged to have it that way.
    Also approach towards the knowledge changes over time what means that most of relavent information is discovered since 1900.
    Ok, but in what areas they earn those PhDs for the most part?


    4. I know where you are coming from and that is exactly why I disagree.
    For example a person can have natural tendencies towards intelligence but if the don't know how to read or calcualte they will not get far.
    The education can be formal or unformal but it is still an education.
    Your calim that I will never understand also leads into direction that you think I am ignorant.



    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    Then why were you trying to argue that there's a correlation between "exposure to information and athiesm?" By "exposure to information" do you not mean intelligence?




    Are you speaking of God in the Christian sense, or God in the general sense?
    1. When I say that there is a correlation I mean exposure to purely scientific and religious material can make a capital difference.
    If you parents never send you to church you will probably end up as atheist in life. Unless you take more rebelious approach.

    2. For now I am talking alout God in general sense,

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    1. Well, you said


    what could indicate that you think that I am ignorant.

    2.Good.

    3. The fact that Bishops were most educated people for ceturies could mean that they were privileged to have it that way.
    Also approach towards the knowledge changes over time what means that most of relavent information is discovered since 1900.
    Ok, but in what areas they earn those PhDs for the most part?


    4. I know where you are coming from and that is exactly why I disagree.
    For example a person can have natural tendencies towards intelligence but if the don't know how to read or calcualte they will not get far.
    The education can be formal or unformal but it is still an education.
    Your calim that I will never understand also leads into direction that you think I am ignorant.


    1. No way. You just interpreted it that way. My point is that educated or ignorant, a person can be religious, spiritual, or atheist.

    3) Priests can have PhDs in science, math, and psychiatry, they aren't always in theology or philosophy. And it's not just priests - plenty of educated people believe in something...doctors, lawyers, teachers, professors...

    4) Nope. I just think that you assume others are ignorant. I also think that you are rigidly TJ, and there's nothing an FP can do about it. I don't want to do anything about it. You are who you are. We just do not understand each other, and I feel that your attitude in threads is frequently condecending, which is something I don't like unless it's lightened with humor.

  4. #54
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Answer to the OP: I believe exactly what you feel is impossible. You're just gone. Dead, vanished.
    I-95%, S-84%, T-89%, P-84%

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    1. When I say that there is a correlation I mean exposure to purely scientific and religious material can make a capital difference.
    If you parents never send you to church you will probably end up as atheist in life. Unless you take more rebelious approach.
    Ahh, I like this wording much better. I'm sure there is some correlation, but this is not always the case.

    This reminds me of something Irecall watching something on TV a while back about some organization of people who decided that it was best to let their children decide their own beliefs. They had a "church" per se, but when the children and adults went there, it was more about opening one's mind to possibility and creativity (while still encouraging tolerance of others' ideas). The children were encouraged to decide themselves if indeed there was a God or gods and if they needed to believe in a religion or what they believed life was all about The reporters interviewed some of the children and asked some of their beliefs and many were quite different; some believed in one God, some didn't believe in anything, just principles to follow (sort of like Bhudda?), etc. I found this to be great because no one was telling them what to believe and they were asked to decide on their own what life was about. Sort of going off on a tangent here, but my point is that I think that people should decide for themselves if there is or is not a religion. In this case, religion (or lack thereof) wasn't hurting anyone or making them more segregated. People were coming together in tolerance and discovering the world for themselves. This is sort of what I like to do. (I hope this wasn't some type of cult... I don't really remember all of the TV program. )

    I used to go to a Catholic Church when I was younger, later on my family kept going less and less, and now only my father goes to church on Sundays. This is fine, and it works for my family. I develop my own sense of how the world works and why we are here. Some may choose to think that there's nothing special about us and that the world doesn't work in any intricate way. This is fine also, to each his own, but no one is converting me from my "religion."

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one
    2. For now I am talking alout God in general sense,
    Mind giving me some examples of evidence how no God or higher power can exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by millerm277 View Post
    Answer to the OP: I believe exactly what you feel is impossible. You're just gone. Dead, vanished.
    Ahh, yes, this is what many people I've come across on the internet seem to believe. (Not trying to make a pattern here, just observing.) But I refuse to believe this morbid conclusion. I say there must be something. Call me crazy if you will, but there just must be something.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post

    1. When I say that there is a correlation I mean exposure to purely scientific and religious material can make a capital difference.
    If you parents never send you to church you will probably end up as atheist in life. Unless you take more rebelious approach.

    2. For now I am talking alout God in general sense,
    But how can your first suggestion be correct if a belief in a god in a general sense exists in nearly every culture around the world? This suggests to me that belief in a higher power is not something necessarily taught by parents, if you take organized religion out of the equation. Of course, I'm sure you believe that there's a god gene or something that causes this phenomenon.

    Also, if your assumption is true, then why did famous atheist Madeleine Murray O'Hare's son become a preacher?

  7. #57
    S Saiyan God Mace's Avatar
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    Personally, I think the soul exists - and the way I see it... once we're 'gone' from our physical selves, we become 'free' to an absolute reality. One that is pure of the limits imposed on us, or our consciences if you'd like to call it.

    ... By limits, I would say every aspect that makes our lives 'trivial' be taken away.

    The soul is as real as our minds work, and possibly greater of existence than the 'trivial' issues people often observe/tolerate during the day, etc, in which hardly anybody is sure to what ultimate purpose their way of life serves. It's more of a question about how much conviction one carries in their way of life, which comes across nearest-as-opposed-to-none plausible.

  8. #58
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    Ahh, yes, this is what many people I've come across on the internet seem to believe. (Not trying to make a pattern here, just observing.) But I refuse to believe this morbid conclusion. I say there must be something. Call me crazy if you will, but there just must be something.
    The internet has a tendency to attract technical people and such, which at least seem to be far less religious than the general population. And it stands to reason that it is fairly likely that atheists are less likely to believe in an afterlife?

    Anyway, my personal beliefs are actually in a way based much more on my own introspection, and my constant forays extraordinarily close to the edge of death....have just produced this disbelief in me that there is anything but nothingness beyond it.

    For your information - I'm an ISTP, I like almost anything dangerous. I've climbed mountains with ledges and handholds, jumped off cliffs on skis and then dodged boulders and drop-offs on the way down the chute at highway speeds on two little planks of wood/fiberglass, explosives and firearms are fun too. One wrong move or miscalculation in most things I like to do, and I won't be here anymore.
    I-95%, S-84%, T-89%, P-84%

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sentura View Post
    after the body dies, the mind is still alive, if only for couple of minutes. the lack of oxygen to the brain causes the mind to go into an unstable state of hallucinations and relief of thoughts that could be associated with seeing your personal heaven or hell. after this, it goes black.
    good point. thanks for the info.

  10. #60
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I am quite calm actually.


    1. This is exactly what I was saying. You have opened a link and you presume that I will be less critical to somedegree.
    But I will not do that since I am pretty sure that this entire idea about those 21 grams has started like this in the first place. Which is that someone sent this claim into the public and people have accepted it as a fact or realistic possibility.


    2. As far as I know there is a lot of very religious people in this world and I am sure that many of them would be quite happy to sereve as guinea-pigs in this matters. If nothing just to show a good argument that their belief is a correct one.

    Also there is a fact that 21 gram is very small differece that can be easy to overlook or falsify.





    On the other hand your link mentons experiments from 1907. Which proves that this is not a new idea. But in 1907 ethics was far less developed then it is today so I don't see why you couldn't make public presentations on this topic.

    Especially since people were more religious a century ago then they are today. Plus the Church could have achived great benefits from this.
    Especially because since that were the times in history when secularism strarted to spread.


    Instead people make mysticism out of everything. What could be a good indicator that "they" don't have anything but a fairy-tale.
    It was just information I provided. Nothing more.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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