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  1. #31
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I'm not sure if there is such a thing as a soul. It might simply be a perceptual byproduct of the way our mind processes reality. But my first idea upon imagining that a soul exists, is that we all simply become ghosts and wander the earth for eternity when we die, unable to be seen, interact with, or otherwise affect anything.
    Maybe we are already ghosts, just from a more substantial prior reality.

    Speculation is endless.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #32
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    1. Why we lose 21 gram ? Is it because someone said so or is it because someone has empirical evidence? Something like this can be very easy to prove in public. So I am wondering why no one does it.
    Chillax, Dude.
    Here's something of answer to question one.
    snopes.com: Weight of the Soul

    The claim is based on true experiment, but in no can be considered empirical evidence.
    And it's consider taboo to watch some one die (as in stranger in the room), that's why no-one does it today.
    I remember a few years back a BBC documentary had much debate surrounding it because they claimed they were going to film some one dying. I just checked it though, they didn't.
    Back in 2007, ITV was criticised for advertising that its documentary Malcolm and Barbara: Love's Farewell would show the moment when an Alzheimer's patient died. It later admitted that it had actually ceased filming three days earlier. A BBC spokesman says: "In Victorian times it was a widely accepted practice to take photographs of dead loved ones."
    BBC to screen docu featuring corpses

    I'll state my position tommorrow (if I remember), I need to go to sleep.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #33
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    Chillax, Dude.
    Here's something of answer to question one.
    snopes.com: Weight of the Soul

    The claim is based on true experiment, but in no can be considered empirical evidence.
    And it's consider taboo to watch some one die (as in stranger in the room), that's why no-one does it today.
    I remember a few years back a BBC documentary had much debate surrounding it because they claimed they were going to film some one dying. I just checked it though, they didn't.

    BBC to screen docu featuring corpses

    I'll state my position tommorrow (if I remember), I need to go to sleep.
    I am quite calm actually.


    1. This is exactly what I was saying. You have opened a link and you presume that I will be less critical to somedegree.
    But I will not do that since I am pretty sure that this entire idea about those 21 grams has started like this in the first place. Which is that someone sent this claim into the public and people have accepted it as a fact or realistic possibility.


    2. As far as I know there is a lot of very religious people in this world and I am sure that many of them would be quite happy to sereve as guinea-pigs in this matters. If nothing just to show a good argument that their belief is a correct one.

    Also there is a fact that 21 gram is very small differece that can be easy to overlook or falsify.





    On the other hand your link mentons experiments from 1907. Which proves that this is not a new idea. But in 1907 ethics was far less developed then it is today so I don't see why you couldn't make public presentations on this topic.

    Especially since people were more religious a century ago then they are today. Plus the Church could have achived great benefits from this.
    Especially because since that were the times in history when secularism strarted to spread.


    Instead people make mysticism out of everything. What could be a good indicator that "they" don't have anything but a fairy-tale.

  4. #34
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyPheonix View Post
    Chillax, Dude.
    Here's something of answer to question one.
    snopes.com: Weight of the Soul

    The claim is based on true experiment, but in no can be considered empirical evidence.
    And it's consider taboo to watch some one die (as in stranger in the room), that's why no-one does it today.
    Yeah, Snopes says basically the experiment was flawed:

    What to make of all this? MacDougall's results were flawed because the methodology used to harvest them was suspect, the sample size far too small, and the ability to measure changes in weight imprecise. For this reason, credence should not be given to the idea his experiments proved something, let alone that they measured the weight of the soul as 21 grams. His postulations on this topic are a curiousity, but nothing more.
    Mary Roach covered it too, I think, in one of her fun books -- either "Stiff" or "Spook."

    Honestly, the whole things sounds pretty cheesy.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #35
    your resident asshole
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    As far as I know there is a lot of very religious people in this world and I am sure that many of them would be quite happy to sereve as guinea-pigs in this matters. If nothing just to show a good argument that their belief is a correct one.
    Unfourtunately, you're probably right. While an actual study may have happened to show that some people lost 21 grams when they died, overly religious people may have jumped in to say, "Look! That must be the soul!" Well, most reasonable religious people would tell you that the soul does not have weight. I hate all the close-minded people like them. Why can we just have religion, but live in peace and tolerance. I'm a Catholic Christian, but I reject some of the idiotic, hateful beliefs and substitute my own. I'm not afraid to factor science into religion. Why can't they just live in harmony? AHHH!!!

    Well, erm. That post didn't really get anywhere. Kind of goes off-topic, too.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JivinJeffJones View Post
    Any source on that, out of curiosity?
    An experiment conducted by Dr. MacDougall, a physician of the early 20th century.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    1. Why we lose 21 gram ? Is it because someone said so or is it because someone has empirical evidence? Something like this can be very easy to prove in public. So I am wondering why no one does it.


    2. For you it is easy to claim laws of physics this or laws of physics that. But from your post it is obvious that you are not familiar with laws of physics.The standard SI unit for energy is Joule not Gram. What means that if body indead loses 21 grams they we are not talking about soul/energy.
    Also if soul weights 21 grams that means that it has mass. What means that you can effect it with gravity. What doesn't correlate with idea od soul. (at least not a standard one)



    3.You say 21 grams. But when you turn 21 grams into energy that is huge amount of energy.
    One gram has 8.9876 x 10^13 Joules.
    But explosion of 1000 tonnes of TNT produces only 4.18 10^12 joules.
    What means that death of every human being would cause a huge exsplosion since the energy that will be relelased by transformation would be huge and that is what explosions are all about actually.
    Since energy has to be channeled into something.
    This transformation is the only way of turning those 21 grams which are purely physical into energy from which soul supposed to be made.
    If you are not talking about the energy from physical laws then you should not have mentioned them. Since you are talking about some different kinds of energy which have pretty much nothing to do with physics.



    3. You are talking about theoretical models where matter is made of energy once again you have a problem. Since everything is made of energy what means that apples , cars , walls ... could have souls as well
    When you turn on a blender or oven in your kitchen to make yourself a lunch you use that same energy.



    4. If people want to raad more I recommend this thread



    5. If we heve souls what would be their purpose?
    Trying to disprove what people believe spiritually is an utter waste of time. There are highly educated and intelligent people who believe in god, and ignorant people of average intelligence who don't. There is no direct correalation between education or exposure to information and atheism.

  8. #38
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Trying to disprove what people believe spiritually is an utter waste of time. There are highly educated and intelligent people who believe in god, and ignorant people of average intelligence who don't. There is no direct correlation between education or exposure to information and atheism.
    I think the issue more was using scientific language to express something that is actually just a belief, as you have pointed out. So you can't prove or disprove a spiritual belief; but you CAN discuss what "evidence" does and does not conform to sound observable principle.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #39
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    You don't have a soul when you die. biggest categorical error ever



    Signed,
    Your local Pragmatist

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I think the issue more was using scientific language to express something that is actually just a belief, as you have pointed out. So you can't prove or disprove a spiritual belief; but you CAN discuss what "evidence" does and does not conform to sound observable principle.
    Yes, but the 21 grams theory was completely anecdotal, and totally not the basis of my beliefs, and I highly doubt they are the basis of anyone else's here, either.

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