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  1. #31
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    stuff
    The difference between your example and mine is that I can cite a clear cause and effect. If I give a man a concussion, which is a brain injury, then thinking is impaired. Your notion of electrical impulses that exist outside the brain in some undefined manner is now venturing into the supernatural (that which science cannot prove) and is essentially saying "well if anything can be anything, then anything is possible".

    I'll certainly grant you that, when magic become a factor, you can rationalize anything you like.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    The difference between your example and mine is that I can cite a clear cause and effect. If I give a man a concussion, which is a brain injury, then thinking is impaired. Your notion of electrical impulses that exist outside the brain in some undefined manner is now venturing into the supernatural (that which science cannot prove) and is essentially saying "well if anything can be anything, then anything is possible".

    I'll certainly grant you that, when magic become a factor, you can rationalize anything you like.
    I was talking about the fact that both computers and brains are capable of thought. Suggesting it is the electrical impulses, hence reducing thought to the lowest common denominator. Not supernatural.

    My argument remains around empirical evidence, I never suggested magic is real.

    It could be though.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Alright, and if the brain is what generates these electrical impulses, how do they continue once the brain is destroyed? Or put another way, if I destroy my computer hardware, how does the software continue to run?

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    Alright, and if the brain is what generates these electrical impulses, how do they continue once the brain is destroyed? Or put another way, if I destroy my computer hardware, how does the software continue to run?
    What's to stop those electrical impulses forming somewhere else?

    Software is nothing but binary, it's not destroyed by physical action. It runs on other computers, it can be rebuilt, it can be uploaded, it can be on the internet. Software has an 'afterlife', in some sense. It can even be argued that the hardware can have an 'afterlife', it just occurs less often.

    This is aside my point, as I am simply arguing that there is no evidence, nor analogy, that adequately suggests all the aspects of our mind (a vague term) cease to function after (another vague term) destruction of the brain.

    After=outside of what we have observed.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    What's to cause them to form somewhere else? There's no observable cause and effect, or even a plausible theory, so the assumption is baseless, ergo supernatural. My hypothetical person dismisses this option in favor of tangible and observable effect, and can come to the conclusion of oblivion.

  6. #36
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    "You humans speak of a soul so lightly. If I crush your skull will I see it? If I crack open your chest will I see it then?"
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...ml#post1161526

    "They the type of cats who pollute the whole shoreline. Have it purified. Sell it for a $1.25"

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    What's to cause them to form somewhere else? There's no observable cause and effect, or even a plausible theory, so the assumption is baseless, ergo supernatural. My hypothetical person dismisses this option in favor of tangible and observable effect, and can come to the conclusion of oblivion.
    The same thing that caused them to form in the first place? Other examples: Cloning, reformation of the universe (big bang crunch cycle), another universe, vacuum energy fluctuation, the electronic impulses present throughout the entire universe, a computer etc.

    Generally, any formation of particles that resembles, or is indistinguishable from 'you', whatever you define 'you' as. Even if 'you' is qualitative experience, link it to particles and do it again. (I'm not going to bother listing possible unobserved phenomenom that could bring you back)

    I'd like to point out that you've defined supernatural as the unobservable, essentially saying it's absurd. That was my point all along. Any claim to knowledge of the afterlife is 'supernatural', whether oblivion, salvation etc.

    To put it plainly, you are stating that we will never reoccur again, or continue on depending on your definition of 'we'. In order to make that claim successfully, you'll need a solid understanding of the universe. That includes what will happen throughout all of space and time, as well as what happens in any 'supernatural' areas there might be.

    Quote Originally Posted by kendoiwan View Post
    "You humans speak of a soul so lightly. If I crush your skull will I see it? If I crack open your chest will I see it then?"
    Define 'soul' and that quote can be answered.

    Like quotes about god, you really have to define god first, to be coherent in the slightest.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    The same thing that caused them to form in the first place? Other examples: Cloning, reformation of the universe (big bang crunch cycle), another universe, vacuum energy fluctuation, the electronic impulses present throughout the entire universe, a computer etc.

    Generally, any formation of particles that resembles, or is indistinguishable from 'you', whatever you define 'you' as. Even if 'you' is qualitative experience, link it to particles and do it again. (I'm not going to bother listing possible unobserved phenomenom that could bring you back)

    I'd like to point out that you've defined supernatural as the unobservable, essentially saying it's absurd. That was my point all along. Any claim to knowledge of the afterlife is 'supernatural', whether oblivion, salvation etc.

    To put it plainly, you are stating that we will never reoccur again, or continue on depending on your definition of 'we'. In order to make that claim successfully, you'll need a solid understanding of the universe. That includes what will happen throughout all of space and time, as well as what happens in any 'supernatural' areas there might be.

    Again you're saying that anything could be anything. I think we're going in circles here and I'm not going to argue with magic.

    In summary of my points - one can be led to an educated assumption of oblivion as an end state as a more (most?) likely outcome given our current understanding of how things work. Call it a hypothesis rather than a guess.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    Again you're saying that anything could be anything. I think we're going in circles here and I'm not going to argue with magic.

    In summary of my points - one can be led to an educated assumption of oblivion as an end state as a more (most?) likely outcome given our current understanding of how things work. Call it a hypothesis rather than a guess.
    You're yet to make one argument as to why we won't come back...

    Your assumption is not an educated one. All one needs is a reasonable understanding of physics to come to the conclusion that this universe will reoccur countless times. Not a solid conclusion in the slightest, but certainly more solid than your conclusion. I've already posted this however, and you haven't provided any sought of counterpoint. You seem to just call it magic and dismiss it on that basis.

    Ultimate fate of the universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    There's a start on why oblivion does not seem a likely end state. My previous link in this thread gives some info on the quantum field fluctuation theory, which I don't think is mentioned in the wiki article (it is the follow through of the entropy scenario).

    I'll ask one more time, have you any evidence to provide, at all, to back up oblivion as the end state of an individual life?

    Presumably you even believe we came out of oblivion, yet you deny it will happen again. All I want is some evidence as to why life will only occur 'once'.

  10. #40
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    I witness life, not the creator. I witness a painting, not the painter.

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