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  1. #471
    FigerPuppet
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    Agnostic atheist.

  2. #472
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Perhaps you should use more proper terminology here, and refer to this as American Evangelicalism; since Christianity is a major world religion with a billion adherents around the world - and the largest denomination of such being Catholicism.
    That's a good start. And then once we've gotten that shred of specificity, we can also talk about how American Evangelicals don't all hold the exact same views on all issues as well. Athenian, have you heard of Sojourners or Evangelicals for Human Rights? It's important to get to what the specific issue is and who the actual people involved are, otherwise you are just inventing categories for your own personal agenda, and are "imposing" it on people yourself, grossly misusing words such as "Christianity" to mean certain specific people taking specific actions that you disagree with.
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  3. #473
    Sniffles
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    That's true Jeffster. And one also cannot really impose political categories of "Left" and "Right" unto religions either; even though they do intersect at times. Christianity and its teachings are 2000 years old; while the ideological categories of Left/Right date back only to the late 18th century. There's also a significant difference between the natures of religions and political ideologies.

  4. #474
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    That's a good start. And then once we've gotten that shred of specificity, we can also talk about how American Evangelicals don't all hold the exact same views on all issues as well. Athenian, have you heard of Sojourners or Evangelicals for Human Rights? It's important to get to what the specific issue is and who the actual people involved are, otherwise you are just inventing categories for your own personal agenda, and are "imposing" it on people yourself, grossly misusing words such as "Christianity" to mean certain specific people taking specific actions that you disagree with.
    Well, I'm actually a little embarrassed to say what the specific issue is... because it's probably not the most rational reason anyone ever rejected a religion. Most people have better justifications than me, honestly. I've always been ashamed to think about details in general, so I tend to protest against vague things to avoid having to admit to what my real problem is, because the more specific you get, the more likely people are to downplay your concern. If you keep it vague enough, they're more likely to find something in it and agree with you that there's a problem.

    But the specific issues would be the people who want to create laws that would restrict the rights of homosexuals and transsexuals, outlaw abortion, and insist on traditional gender roles. The people who promote those things usually use the Bible to justify their stance, which presumably means Christianity promotes that stance. Finding myself aligned with several such people who don't want to be restricted by such laws and traditions... I just sort of reacted to the feeling of being oppressed by Christians, and decided to rally against them, fight back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That's true Jeffster. And one also cannot really impose political categories of "Left" and "Right" unto religions either; even though they do intersect at times. Christianity and its teachings are 2000 years old; while the ideological categories of Left/Right date back only to the late 18th century. There's also a significant difference between the natures of religions and political ideologies.
    There is a difference, but it's kind of hard to keep them as separate issues when people back up their ideology with a specific religion. My whole goal in attacking Christ-ahem, American Evangelicalism was to undermine the foundation of their ideology in order to help my coincidental allies weaken their position in the public view. Without the backing of the Bible (or the Bible coming to be considered disreputable and absurd), the chances of average people coming to accept/tolerate those who hold views like mine increases substantially, and thus the chances of laws being passed that invalidate our perspectives and choices are dramatically reduced.

  5. #475
    Senior Member FC3S's Avatar
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    I'm a renounced Christian.
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  6. #476
    Senior Thread Terminator Aerithria's Avatar
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    Agnostic in theory, atheist in practice.
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  7. #477
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But the specific issues would be the people who want to create laws that would restrict the rights of homosexuals and transsexuals, outlaw abortion, and insist on traditional gender roles. The people who promote those things usually use the Bible to justify their stance, which presumably means Christianity promotes that stance. Finding myself aligned with several such people who don't want to be restricted by such laws and traditions... I just sort of reacted to the feeling of being oppressed by Christians, and decided to rally against them, fight back.
    In all honesty, I don't see much of a point in rejecting Christianity just because of its teachings on homosexuality.


    There is a difference, but it's kind of hard to keep them as separate issues when people back up their ideology with a specific religion. My whole goal in attacking Christ-ahem, American Evangelicalism was to undermine the foundation of their ideology in order to help my coincidental allies weaken their position in the public view. Without the backing of the Bible (or the Bible coming to be considered disreputable and absurd), the chances of average people coming to accept/tolerate those who hold views like mine increases substantially, and thus the chances of laws being passed that invalidate our perspectives and choices are dramatically reduced.
    Quite honestly, your attempts at undermining the Bible and Christianity are rather weak. And this is further confirmed if your main purpose here is because of its teachings on homosexuality.

  8. #478
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    When I say "Christianity," I pretty much mean the Christians in the United States that are trying to impose their right-wing agenda on people like me, justifying their position only with quotes from the Bible.
    I wish this belief wasn't as common as it is. If only moderate Christians (ESPECIALLY Christians who accept evolution/science/homosexuality and who accept other religions) got more publicity. Non-Christians often don't even know that they exist. (Which is because they're quieter, and not as fiery.)

    It's sad. It's like "I've seen horrible Christians on TV. Therefore, they're all bad, because they must ALL be like that. Because the Christians on TV MUST be a scientifically accurate survey of what Christians are like irl."

    Now, on to answering the OP: I'm an Episcopalian. (Important side note: I'm left-wing!) Big, BIG difference from American Evangelicalism, for those who know about us. My mother is a combination of Episcopalian and Buddhist. I have friends of every religion. I don't try to convert anyone, because I believe that all religions are just different paths to the same goal. I was raised in a community of atheists, buddhists, pagans, wiccans, etc (mostly atheists), and they looked down on all Christians for that exact reason. I kept my religion to myself. To this day, I find my religion to be deeply personal, to the point that I only truly practice my religion when I'm alone. I only go to church for the music (I <3 Anglican church music), the people and the atmosphere.
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  9. #479
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    Atheist, because the believers have yet to show me proof.

  10. #480
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In all honesty, I don't see much of a point in rejecting Christianity just because of its teachings on homosexuality.

    Quite honestly, your attempts at undermining the Bible and Christianity are rather weak. And this is further confirmed if your main purpose here is because of its teachings on homosexuality.
    Well, which are you saying? That people:

    A. Shouldn't reject Christianity as a whole if they choose to disagree with some of it's teachings?

    B. That people should accept all of the teachings if they find most of them valid, regardless of their personal feelings?

    And yes, I suppose it's homosexuality, other gender issues, and women's rights. Oh, and slavery.


    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I wish this belief wasn't as common as it is. If only moderate Christians (ESPECIALLY Christians who accept evolution/science/homosexuality and who accept other religions) got more publicity. Non-Christians often don't even know that they exist. (Which is because they're quieter, and not as fiery.)

    It's sad. It's like "I've seen horrible Christians on TV. Therefore, they're all bad, because they must ALL be like that. Because the Christians on TV MUST be a scientifically accurate survey of what Christians are like irl."
    I always thought I was kind of unique in that perspective. Are you telling me it's common?

    I've always heard a lot of Christians say that such people don't count as Christians because they don't accept all of the teachings, and that they'd rather people just admit that they reject Christianity than pretend to be something they're not. So I did thusly. I'm not sure what to make of that...
    Now, on to answering the OP: I'm an Episcopalian. (Important side note: I'm left-wing!) Big, BIG difference from American Evangelicalism, for those who know about us. My mother is a combination of Episcopalian and Buddhist. I have friends of every religion. I don't try to convert anyone, because I believe that all religions are just different paths to the same goal. I was raised in a community of atheists, buddhists, pagans, wiccans, etc (mostly atheists), and they looked down on all Christians for that exact reason. I kept my religion to myself. To this day, I find my religion to be deeply personal, to the point that I only truly practice my religion when I'm alone. I only go to church for the music (I <3 Anglican church music), the people and the atmosphere.
    That is exactly what I believe, and it's the reason I'm an agnostic. I believe there's a higher being, and a spiritual aspect of the world, but I don't believe there's a single philosophy about it that's true and falsifies all the others. Because there's a lot of overlap, and the things that do overlap seem like the more significant ones. The things that don't seem less important and more like they might have been artifacts of the culture or writer's perspective.

    Yeah... I've never heard of anyone going to church for the atmosphere. I've only heard of people going in order to show service to God, since that was supposedly the purpose. I'm kind of surprised anyone would think of it that way.

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