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  1. #71
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Read and learn:
    How can you have a nonbelief? That's like having no money. What do you have?
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  2. #72
    Phoenix Incarnate Sentura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Read and learn:
    even nothing has a value. you, as an NT of all people, should understand this better than anyone.
    i hunt INXPs for bounty
    FUNCTION ORDER FOR THOSE THAT CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHAT ENXP MEANS: Ne > Ni > Fi=Ti > *

    ...people tell me i have wildfires in my eyes

  3. #73
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    How can you have a nonbelief? That's like having no money. What do you have?
    Um... because I can? This is my position: I see no evidence for god, therefore I do not believe in it. It's that simple. If evidence were to surface, I would consider it, and if strong enough, I would believe in god. Naturally though, I don't completely reject the possibility of a god, so the technical term for my position would be agnostic atheist.

    In fact most theists are also atheists in regards to other gods, I'm just an atheist to all of them.

    How do I believe the universe started? No idea. I don't believe any theory, as there is no evidence for any of them. (Which btw, Big Bang theory isn't a theory of how the universe started. It doesn't describe what was before the Big Bang, if anything.)
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  4. #74
    Intriguing.... Quinlan's Avatar
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    I'm an Atheist in the sense that I don't believe in the Christian/Muslim(etc.) god in the same way that I don't believe in Zeus, Thor or Ra. I don't discount the possibility of their existence but I don't let that possibility influence how I live my life in any way.

    I'm not sure why that should bother anyone.

    Leaders justify sending the young to die by saying it's god's will, but it's nothing more than a way of getting the unwilling on board in the struggle to secure new territory/resources/power. That struggle will continue as long as there is life on this planet, regardless of ontological status of some weird supernatural being. Atheists often seem to either overlook or forget this when they get on their oh-so-rational high horses.
    It does provide a veil of legitimacy and an acceptance of mad people/ideas, it does make justification of astrocities much easier. Although I think it's probable that if religion disappeared over night we would start seeing people as god-like. Faith seems to be a common psychological need.
    Act your age not your enneagram number.

    Quinlan's Creations

  5. #75
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Um... because I can? This is my position: I see no evidence for god, therefore I do not believe in it. It's that simple. If evidence were to surface, I would consider it, and if strong enough, I would believe in god. Naturally though, I don't completely reject the possibility of a god, so the technical term for my position would be agnostic atheist.

    In fact most theists are also atheists in regards to other gods, I'm just an atheist to all of them.

    How do I believe the universe started? No idea. I don't believe any theory, as there is no evidence for any of them. (Which btw, Big Bang theory isn't a theory of how the universe started. It doesn't describe what was before the Big Bang, if anything.)
    That's like having a non-belief in Easter bunnies. How can you have a non-belief? Atheism is a reaction to theism rather than its own set of principles. It's the cognitive equivalent of "I don't like vegetables" to which I say, "Fine, don't eat any!" Don't start a club called "Down with vegetables" and try to make people bad or stupid for enjoying vegetables.

    The only logical position on such subjects is to have no position. In the realm of science, we should make decisions based on what is provable, but this should really extend no further.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  6. #76
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    The only logical position on such subjects is to have no position. In the realm of science, we should make decisions based on what is provable, but this should really extend no further.
    That is my position essentially. I do not believe in any theory as to how the universe started as none have any evidence for them. Which means of course that I do not believe in any theistic theory, ie, atheist.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  7. #77
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    A lot of times there's not much you can do about that attitude except ignore it and show by your actions that atheists are perfectly capable of being moral.
    Precisely.
    Still it is the case (as in this thread) that many force you to give them a smack-down with ridiculous inverted persecution complexes (yes, the atheists have historically been after Christians, pitchforks in hand -- not the other way around) and lazy, loud analogies.

  8. #78
    Once Was Synarch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    That is my position essentially. I do not believe in any theory as to how the universe started as none have any evidence for them. Which means of course that I do not believe in any theistic theory, ie, atheist.
    So, why don't you just claim to be an agnostic? Atheist is an assertion of disbelief, not lack of belief.

    I am, for the record, agnostic.
    "Create like a god, command like a king, work like a slave."

  9. #79
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synarch View Post
    So, why don't you just claim to be an agnostic? Atheist is an assertion of disbelief, not lack of belief.
    Atheism is not limited to an assertion of disbelief. You can be an agnostic theist, for example. They deal with separate things. Hell, most religious people are theistic agnostics, if you take a liberal interpretation of saying that "they don't know for sure but must still have faith".

    I am an agnostic atheist, and I base this on my positive assertion behind my theory of knowledge - that absolute universal knowledge isn't possible (probably), and that the accuracy of knowledge is best judged from evidence, leading to a 1/infinite chance of religion being correct - approaching zero.

    This leads me to a skeptical non-opinion about theistic belief.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    No. A negative proof is false claim to truth on something because it cannot be disproven. For example, say I claim moon men within the core of the moon control our actions via telepathy and only by sacrificing 10 tons of cheese to the lunar spirits every 28 days can we avoid eternal damnation. Can you disprove this? If not, then it's reasonable to believe it, according to the theist.

    The problem with offering this concept to a theist is that they usually start of the position of god vs. no god. It's a black and white question. An atheist will see an infinite number of equally reasonable possibilities and conclude that throwing weight into anything outside direct observation only stands a (1/infinity) chance of being correct.
    I think you're being a bit unfair to the theists. It's far more black and white to the atheists that I've encountered. Also the example you used is somewhat lacking. The empirical evidence that the theist uses to support his position is epistemically accessible to the atheist. The atheist just doesn't see it as evidence. Think here of Paley's Watchmaker. If you're not down with the teleological account you can go back to St. Anselm's "greatest possible being" or the Platonic "unmoved mover". Invoking absurd examples to empirically discredit the believer is shifty move that many atheists make. They misrepresent the true theist's position in order to make claims about the lack of rationality inherent in it. As a rational being, I find that problematic. The best an empiricist can do with a concept of god is deny it on the grounds of probability, but that's an inductive claim and inductive claims are, necessarily, limited in their scope of applicability to the natural world. If there's a supernatural being somehow responsible for it all we cannot have direct epistemic access to it simply because it is supernatural. You cannot prove or disprove it exists, because you cannot do anything at all with it, empirically. The theist and atheist end up being in the exact same place logically. The theist takes the leap of faith in one direction, the atheist in the other. The rest of us sit here wondering what the hell everyone is so excited about.

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