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  1. #281
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Unkind but true.

    And they have a lot to be obnoxious about such the report of Ireland's Commission into Child Abuse.

    The 2600-page report by Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse found rape was endemic in more than 250 Irish-Catholic care institutions from the 1930s to the 1990s, and the church protected pedophiles from prosecution.
    The funny thing is that I don't see this as a particularly'bad' thing for religion... not as a belief system. It's an organization issue - give power, especially moral power, to a body politic and it tends to follow its baser nature.

    What I do find frustrating is the "my religion/church could never be like...", despite so many religions being like that. Course, you can replace that with government/etc, but the central point is that it isn't special. The behavior tends to be very much the same.

  2. #282
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    The abuse scandal is a disastrous black spot on my church.
    Rather than a black spot, it is an X-ray.

    We are told the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and we are commanded to love this same God. This is precisely what a child sexual abuser demands of his victims - he demand his victims both fear and love him.

    And God, of course, has absolute power. And the perfect expression of absolute power is to rape many children over many years and have the Hierarchy of the Church protect you from the law, and facilitate your crimes in the next parish.

    But why should we be surprised?

    After all, the Father was offended by us and in order to forgive us He tortured his Son to death on the Cross.

    The Father is the perfect role model for absolute power and the abuse of a child in his care.

  3. #283
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    The funny thing is that I don't see this as a particularly'bad' thing for religion... not as a belief system. It's an organization issue - give power, especially moral power, to a body politic and it tends to follow its baser nature.

    What I do find frustrating is the "my religion/church could never be like...", despite so many religions being like that. Course, you can replace that with government/etc, but the central point is that it isn't special. The behavior tends to be very much the same.
    In 1833 the House of Commons abolished the institution of slavery for the first time in human history.

    And in the 20th Century women gained their emancipation in the West.

    And in the last 15 years the crime of child rape has prosecuted in our Criminal Courts in the West.

    And it is sobering to remember that in large swarths of the world, women have not gained their emancipation.

    And in third world countries, child rape is still not prosecuted in the Criminal Courts.

    To get this in historical perspective it might be an idea to read, "Foundations of Psychohistory", by Lloyd Demause.

    Should you have the moral fortitude, you can read it on the screen in front of you by clicking on -

    Contents - FOUNDATIONS OF PSYCHOHISTORY

  4. #284
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Rather than a black spot, it is an X-ray.

    We are told the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, and we are commanded to love this same God. This is precisely what a child sexual abuser demands of his victims - he demand his victims both fear and love him.

    And God, of course, has absolute power. And the perfect expression of absolute power is to rape many children over many years and have the Hierarchy of the Church protect you from the law, and facilitate your crimes in the next parish.

    But why should we be surprised?

    After all, the Father was offended by us and in order to forgive us He tortured his Son to death on the Cross.

    The Father is the perfect role model for absolute power and the abuse of a child in his care.
    The resulting cynicism and lack of trust that more people now have in the church is somehing that will take a long time to change. I think earning back the previous reputation of the church will be its biggest challenge for the coming decades.

  5. #285
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    ...
    None of which I terribly disagree with, but I'm not sure what your point is, exactly. The balance of history shows that humans are progressing, and that those that hold it back at one moment are encouraging it in the next.

  6. #286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    The resulting cynicism and lack of trust that more people now have in the church is somehing that will take a long time to change. I think earning back the previous reputation of the church will be its biggest challenge for the coming decades.
    On the contrary, the biggest challenge for the Church is to stop raping children in the Philippines and South America and bring the child rapists before the Criminal Courts.

    And an even bigger challenge is to bring the Bishops, the Arch-Bishops and Cardinals before the Criminal Courts. But so far not even one Bishop has had his day in Court.

    But most of all is for the Pope to give up his diplomatic immunity.

    The Pope as you know is not only the Head of the Church but he has the highest temporal status. He is also Head of State.

    And as Head of State he is immune from prosecution.

  7. #287
    Lasting_Pain
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    On the contrary, the biggest challenge for the Church is to stop raping children in the Philippines and South America and bring the child rapists before the Criminal Courts.

    And an even bigger challenge is to bring the Bishops, the Arch-Bishops and Cardinals before the Criminal Courts. But so far not even one Bishop has had his day in Court.

    But most of all is for the Pope to give up his diplomatic immunity.

    The Pope as you know is not only the Head of the Church but he has the highest temporal status. He is also Head of State.

    And as Head of State he is immune from prosecution.
    If I had to choose which religion not to join it would be the Catholics. They worship too many people. God, Jesus, Holy Ghost, The Pope, and the list goes on.

  8. #288
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasting_Pain View Post
    If I had to choose which religion not to join it would be the Catholics. They worship too many people. God, Jesus, Holy Ghost, The Pope, and the list goes on.
    That's incorrect. First, God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same thing and the only thing to be worshipped. The Pope is not worshipped, nor is he prayed to. The rest of the "list," i.e. saints like Mary, are also not worshipped. The belief is that saints can intercede on one's behalf, not that they are to receive worship.

  9. #289
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    By the way, Take Five, did you know that it was the Calvinists that invented the word "tolerance" (especially when dealing with laws)? This concept was virtually unknown amongst Catholics.

    Don't you find this interesting?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  10. #290
    See Right Through Me Bubbles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    By the way, Take Five, did you know that it was the Calvinists that invented the word "tolerance" (especially when dealing with laws)? This concept was virtually unknown amongst Catholics.

    Don't you find this interesting?
    That's like hating Germans because of Hitler. Not all Catholics are intolerant. Just enough to annoy the majority who aren't. And of course there were bad times in the past, but isn't it fair to say the Catholics currently in existence did not promote the Spanish Inquisition, nor the Crusades?

    Besides. The OP is about atheism.
    4w3, IEI, so/sx/sp, female, and Cancer sign.

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