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  1. #271
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    OK I honestly think you're just joking.

    But you know what? You're right. I mean how can anyone actually believe that there is gravity, it's just plain theory. And don't get me started on evolution or global warming.

    Let's please move past this now
    The theory of universal gravitation is only the byproduct of a scientific model of reality, and should not be confused with the reality itself.

    When it was invented, it wasn't "true", it was less false than the previous models, as it allowed to predict more accurate results than them.

    The fact you call a scientific law an "evidence" just proves you have understood nothing of what science really is. It's a classic confusion amongts theists, so I'm not that surprised.

    Evidences only give us hints about what the real world could possibly be. But again, evidences aren't the real world. Evidences don't lie, but you cannot make them say more than what they are supposed to be. And to find them, you have to seek them, they're not that "evident" for everybody.

    Modern men just saw the effects of gravitation during hundreds of millenias, and even more. Yet, we were only able to name the phenomena very recently. Before Leibniz and Newton, we simply had no conception of what "gravitation" could be.

    ---

    If you don't understand what I mean, here's an example:

    Do you enjoy to see mountains or the oceans? Do you find them "beautiful"??
    Well, our ancestors didn't. It was only during the late 18th century that Westerners begin to see them as "beautiful" through the process of "artialisation" (Cf Montaigne). Take Homer and the Odysseus... There is almost no mention of the sea, no description of marine landscapes. You can check it!

    So what is "evident" for you is not that evident everywhere. And it doesn't mean our ancestors were stupid, obnoxious or daft.

    It means Ideas have an history, a context.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  2. #272
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    It means Ideas have an history, a context.
    And without the History of Ideas, we have no context for thinking.

    Without the History of Ideas we are like self-interested rats running a maze we don't understand.

    And the History of Ideas give a certain spare elegance to our thinking.

    You know where ideas come from, how they grow and how they die.

    In a way, the History of Ideas frees us from ideas while at the same time gives us a deep familiarity with those same ideas.

    Discovering the History of Ideas is like growing up and becoming independent. We don't abandon the ideas anymore than we abandon our parents.

    And we don't love ideas any less because we understand they live, love and die.

    But we are no longer in thrall to ideas and we are in a wonderful position to create new ideas of our own.

  3. #273
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    And without the History of Ideas, we have no context for thinking.

    Without the History of Ideas we are like self-interested rats running a maze we don't understand.

    And the History of Ideas give a certain spare elegance to our thinking.

    You know where ideas come from, how they grow and how they die.

    In a way, the History of Ideas frees us from ideas while at the same time gives us a deep familiarity with those same ideas.

    Discovering the History of Ideas is like growing up and becoming independent. We don't abandon the ideas anymore than we abandon our parents.

    And we don't love ideas any less because we understand they live, love and die.

    But we are no longer in thrall to ideas and we are in a wonderful position to create new ideas of our own.
    Somebody's been drinking too much coffee.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Somebody's been drinking too much coffee.
    The History of Ideas is a discipline of its own.

    It is of course a post-graduate discipline as it presumes some familiarity with ideas to start with.

    But I confess, I fell in love with the History of Ideas - I don't quite don't know why - I do remember the first careless rapture - and our love affair continues day by day and provides me with endless pleasure.

    I just hope I can love the History of Ideas as much as the History of Ideas loves me.

  5. #275
    Sniffles
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    Oh I have no doubts you enjoy fondling the History of Ideas' fresh firm ass in the morning.

  6. #276

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    Quote Originally Posted by darkmoon View Post
    I've had some interesting conversations with friends lately about athiests and been surprised to find that many think some weird things about atheists and atheism like:

    -Atheists are without morals
    -Atheists cannot be normal nice people
    -Atheism promotes lawlessness
    -Atheists are arrogant because they don't believe there is something higher than them
    -Atheists don't have a sense of purpose in life
    -Atheists don't deserve the same respect as everyone else
    -Atheists don't respect other people
    -A rise in Atheism is making the planet corrupt
    -If you say you are an Atheist you are trying to convert everyone to your beliefs which is wrong but it's OK to try to convert an Atheist
    -It's OK to question Atheists about why they don't believe in God but not OK for them to question why people do.

    None of those things are particularly true so where do these attitudes come from? It seems the majority of people I know subscribe to at least one of these beliefs.
    Welcome to the reason many people dislike religion. The church tells them this. Integrity and truth in most churches died off a long time ago. It`s often whatever works to convert, no matter what distortions are involved. Regardless of whether the underlying teachings are good, the people who preach this stuff in the name of them are not. They damage the church, and cause unnecessary rifts in society.
    Freude, schöner Götterfunken Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum! Deine Zauber binden wieder Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt.

  7. #277
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noigmn View Post
    Welcome to the reason many people dislike religion. The church tells them this. Integrity and truth in most churches died off a long time ago. It`s often whatever works to convert, no matter what distortions are involved. Regardless of whether the underlying teachings are good, the people who preach this stuff in the name of them are not. They damage the church, and cause unnecessary rifts in society.
    That's incorrect.

  8. #278
    Senior Member Lethal Sage's Avatar
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    OP: Because many of them are obnoxious assholes.
    ...

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lethal Sage View Post
    OP: Because many of them are obnoxious assholes.
    Unkind but true.

    And they have a lot to be obnoxious about such the report of Ireland's Commission into Child Abuse.

    The 2600-page report by Ireland's Commission to Inquire Into Child Abuse found rape was endemic in more than 250 Irish-Catholic care institutions from the 1930s to the 1990s, and the church protected pedophiles from prosecution.

  10. #280
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    The abuse scandal is a disastrous black spot on my church.

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