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  1. #241
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Would you say that theists are wrong in believing in God?
    If they think it improves their lives and those around them, then no.

    It is their concern, their burden, not mine. They chose it. I didn't.

    ---

    For some people, believing in something can enhance their humane qualities. For some others, it doesn't, it can even have the reverse effect.

    It doesn't mean everything is relative, though: some religions are clearly worst than some others too, depending on their ideological dogmas.

    But we have to always differentiate the individual (the person), and the way he is influenced by society, unless we want to commit sophistries or gross generalizations.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  2. #242
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    I do not think the nature of the universe is subjective. I believe that humans and their perception and ideas are imperfect. This accounts for all disagreement, not an alleged subjective nature of the universe.

  3. #243
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    If they think it improves their lives and those around them, then no.

    It is their concern, their burden, not mine. They chose it. I didn't.
    If I think stealing candy from a toddler who is right next to me instead of walking two miles and paying for candy with my own money will improve my life and the lives of others, is that ok too?

  4. #244
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Just a reminder that things are not completely black or white on this issue (i.e. christians think ill of atheists or they don't). Just like there are some atheists who don't mind that christians are christian and are just not bothered much by christians, there are christians who don't mind that atheists are atheists and are just not bothered by them. Point is, to be careful with painting with a wide brush.

  5. #245
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    If I think stealing candy from a toddler who is right next to me instead of walking two miles and paying for candy with my own money will improve my life and the lives of others, is that ok too?
    Does it improve the life of the toddler? Does this behavior respect the Kantian categorical imperative?

    Obviously not.

    So either you are just playing with words just for the sake of contradiction, either you haven't understood anything in life, as an individual.

    In either possibilities, that would make you very arrogant indeed.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    If I think stealing candy from a toddler who is right next to me instead of walking two miles and paying for candy with my own money will improve my life and the lives of others, is that ok too?
    I'd caveat the post you're replying to with ".. as long as it's not detrimental to others."

    I'd certainly also view a religious person's intrusion or persecution of an atheist, or an atheist's judgment and criticism of a religious person, as detrimental.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    If I believe that the dinosaurs are not extinct on Earth and you believe that the dinosaurs are extinct, only one of our beliefs is in agreement with reality. So one of us would be wrong.
    If you believe in purple dinosaurs as your religion but you keep this to yourself and you don't inflict it on everyone else, then I don't care what you believe in.

    People should not be afraid of taking a definitive stance on the issues. Sometimes people, actually everyone at least once, is wrong about something. You need not pretend and hide disagreement in order to avoid hurt feelings.
    It's not about pretending and hiding to avoid disagreement, it is that religion is a very subjective thing, personal and not provable. So what's the point?

    But it goes further for me. I want to have my own unique vision in these matters, I don't want to share with others and I don't want others forcing their views on me.

  8. #248
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    I do not think the nature of the universe is subjective. I believe that humans and their perception and ideas are imperfect.
    This is the point. While I can only agree with these two sentences, the rest shows us you are obviously confusing objective and subjective truths.

    Anyway, since humans are very imperfect creatures (indeed!) there is no way they can contemplate the "objective truth" of the universe. They can only define models of the universe, and compare them, test them so they can hope to determine which one is less false than the other. You know that science is based on falsifiability, don't you?

    Thus, we have to take into account intra and intersubjective factors, even when we try to "suspend or own judgment" (Husserlian Epoche).
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  9. #249
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Does it improve the life of the toddler? Does this behavior respect the Kantian categorical imperative?

    Obviously not.

    So either you are just playing with words just for the sake of contradiction, either you haven't understood anything in life, as an individual.

    In either possibilities, that would make you very arrogant indeed.
    If the agent thinks, which I wrote, he is doing a good thing and improving the life of the toddler, even if in actuality he is not, the Kantian CI would take intent into consideration, as Kantianism is not consequentialism. Not that we all agreed Kant is the end all be all to ethics anyway. The point being that you said the agent is wrong in doing my described action, while you think a similar agent in the situation pertaining to the belief in God is right either way, whether he believes or not. So in one instance you claim their is some degree of objectivity, while in the other you plead subjectivity. So it has been revealed that you do believe in objectivity, at least in some cases, meaning that telling someone that he or she is wrong in doing something, corrresponding to an objective reality, would not make someone arrogant.

    Arrogance is making oneself feel more important or better than others by diminishing the value of others and projecting one's superiority.

    As I see it, and as others apparently see it, saying that something is wrong is completley OK. But people may get upset at this kind of speech.

    So I'll say it clearly: I think atheism and the atheists who agree with atheism are simply wrong.

  10. #250
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    If you believe in purple dinosaurs as your religion but you keep this to yourself and you don't inflict it on everyone else, then I don't care what you believe in.
    This does not mean the religion is right or wrong.

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