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  1. #231
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    You can believe it as strongly as you want, but expect others to treat you, and see you, the same way as you see them... because the three (one of which must be true, you say) statements you make above are much easier applied to religion than atheists, in principle.
    Then I suppose everyone, including you, can be expected to be arrogant.

    If you believe that thinking oneself is right in a debate, and that thinking those in disagreement are wrong for one reason or another makes one arrogant, I guess I'm arrogant then.

    That some people don't grasp something so readily available to experience must be explained somehow. Hence the general statements. e.g. An old man telling a young man that he has much to learn does not make the old man arrogant, imo.

    Your writing makes you seem very frustrated and critical, attacking the writer instead of the writing. So, while I won't directly say that I'm not arrogant, I do say that you're and many others are likely just as arrogant and opinionated as I am.

  2. #232
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    If you believe that thinking oneself is right in a debate, and that thinking those in disagreement are wrong for one reason or another makes one arrogant, I guess I'm arrogant then.
    Thinking yourself right is not arrogant, taken in moderation. Your dismissal of others opinions, marginalization of beliefs on an individual's merits and tone of dismissal (but not of actual consideration) are arrogant.

    Your writing makes you seem very frustrated and critical, attacking the writer instead of the writing.
    I am addressing you at a personal level and I am being critical - when you address all atheists in a dismissive way, you are addressing me - that's why I asked if you included all of them, or just some. There is nothing to attack on what you are writing - your 'writing' isn't open for debate. You have the truth, and consider anyone who doesn't share it dismissed. Hence, arrogant.

    You also quoted me out of context. Your generalizations do not apply to all atheists and they do not apply to all theists. However, the generalizations you have used would more accurately apply to theists by logical deduction (multitude of beliefs, fear of death, raised by family beliefs) than to atheists (non-uniformity of beliefs, away from comforts, walked away from social norms).

  3. #233
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Would you say that theists are wrong in believing in God?

  4. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Would you say that theists are wrong in believing in God?
    As one who'd be considered an atheist for all intents and purposes, I wouldn't say that at all.

    Although I can't speak for all of them, and certainly not for the specific person you're addressing, I just wanted to throw that in there.

  5. #235
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greed View Post
    As one who'd be considered an atheist for all intents and purposes, I wouldn't say that at all.

    Although I can't speak for all of them, and certainly not for the specific person you're addressing, I just wanted to throw that in there.
    So you think atheists and theists are both right?

  6. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    So you think atheists and theists are both right?
    For themselves they are right. Belief is really a personal thing. It's when it becomes evangelistic that problems start.

  7. #237
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    Would you say that theists are wrong in believing in God?
    I disagree with the belief, not with people having the belief.

  8. #238
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    For themselves they are right. Belief is really a personal thing. It's when it becomes evangelistic that problems start.
    If I believe that the dinosaurs are not extinct on Earth and you believe that the dinosaurs are extinct, only one of our beliefs is in agreement with reality. So one of us would be wrong.

    People should not be afraid of taking a definitive stance on the issues. Sometimes people, actually everyone at least once, is wrong about something. You need not pretend and hide disagreement in order to avoid hurt feelings.

  9. #239
    Supreme Allied Commander Take Five's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I disagree with the belief, not with people having the belief.
    That's not what I asked.

  10. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    So you think atheists and theists are both right?
    Yes. I believe that such belief systems are subjective interpretations of the same objective reality from different perspectives.

    A coherent definition of what the "god" means must be formulated and agreed upon before a meaningful general discussion of atheism and theism can even take place. I'm not sure whether this can actually happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Take Five View Post
    I also don't believe in the idea that there are many truths. I think there is one truth. Naturally I think my truth is the truth, or else why would I have my truth?
    This is a much more fundamental point of potential disagreement than the existence of God at all.

    People should not be afraid of taking a definitive stance on the issues. Sometimes people, actually everyone at least once, is wrong about something. You need not pretend and hide disagreement in order to avoid hurt feelings.
    Believing in the subjective nature of the universe is much, much different than hiding disagreement to avoid hurting others' feelings.

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