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teaching approach

run

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So I've been thinking a lot about how to teach young people. And the question is this: Do you keep a positive and patient attitude, or do you push your students to help themselves?

My INTJ music ed teacher is the most impatient person, but it seems he always has reason. It seems I can avoid his harsh criticism if I prepare as much as humanly possible. And what's wrong with that? Now, it's not good to use on purpose, but it produces a lot of good. But I think it can give kids a complex. Some of us can't think straight when he watches, and he never tells us when we do something right if its in the midst of a careless mistake. He acts like we're about to graduate tomorrow.

But anyway, aside from this guy, what do you think? Patient, positive and nice? Or hardass?

My main question is, is it alright for a teacher to have low patience for unrealized potential and careless mistakes, no matter how small?
 

Kalach

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My main question is, is it alright for a teacher to have low patience for unrealized potential and careless mistakes, no matter how small?

Speaking as an INTJ teacher with not so much patience for anything that takes away from the classroom objective, I'll say... no.

Causing people to reach set targets in a timely fashion is one way to create learning. But there's a substantial difference between scheduled achievement and learning. Learning is definitely aided by the schedule, but other things work in learning's favour too. Some people need a connection with the teacher before they can fully involve themselves in following what he says. Some people need an environment. Some people really need you to spell out all the steps. Some people don't care, they just want to know the ideas.

Probably what's best is if the teacher tries to be aware that probably all of those different people will be sitting together in the same classroom.

He should wring his hands for a while, become old and tired before his time, and then encourage some feedback.
 

Recoleta

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+ 1 to Kalach

For me, as a teacher, I think the approach really depends on who you are teaching, and what you are teaching. I have taught college-aged students at a university, and I have taught 7th & 8th grade. My approaches and level of patience visibly vary between those ages.

I am a language teacher (English as a Second Language and Spanish). I know that learning a language is really stressful and that not all students process language in the same way. When I was learning Spanish throughout college, I lived with host families abroad -- some who were incredibly patient with me and open to me butchering their language, and some who corrected every mistake I made to the point where they weren't focusing on what I was saying, but were only seeing the shortcomings of my abilities. The negative experiences crippled me, and it took me a long time to rebuild any sort of confidence. I still struggle with self-doubt in that area.

Therefore, I always try to remain positive with my students. I joke with them and can sometimes display my dry and sarcastic humor, but I would never belittle them in their language efforts. I think the way I change my approach is that for the college students I heap a lot more personal responsibility on them. I expect to have essentially 0 behavior problems, I expect them to turn work in on time, and I expect them to be in my class ready to learn. If they miss it, too bad. You're an adult, you make your own decisions. I am not your keeper, and you will be judged by the clear standards that I set at the beginning of the semester. (You know, barring emergency situations...I understand that they are only human).

For the middle schoolers, they need to have some fun and wiggle room, but that fun needs to be on my terms. I'm not going to be a hardass to them unless I really need to put my foot down...I've watched other teachers treat middle schoolers like inmates, and I just don't think it's effective. The kids are kept silent, but they're not learning, and they're not enjoying themselves. I loved my 7th and 8th graders, they were crazy kids, but they knew my classroom was a safe place. I would joke around a lot with them, and I realized that with middle schoolers I have 3 voices: 1) Excited voice -- when they've done a great job and for when they're just being awesome 2) Normal voice -- it's a calm voice used a lot for teaching, feedback, and general discussion 3) Pissed off voice -- My students know that when I use this tone they've really crossed a line with me and there will be a discussion and consequences. The amazing thing is that they really picked up on and responded to my tones and body language. I think as a teacher, rapport is one of your strongest allies. Students want to do well and succeed for someone they like and for something they feel is worthwhile.

To the OP: Do you feel that you wouldn't have learned just as much if your teacher was more approachable and supportive? I challenge my students, but it's not all about schedules and perfection.
 

run

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To the OP: Do you feel that you wouldn't have learned just as much if your teacher was more approachable and supportive? I challenge my students, but it's not all about schedules and perfection.

Yeah, and I'm wondering, what is approachability and support? What is being a pushover, and what is being a drill seargant?

I approach him for help twice, and both times, he's just... mean. If you've ever seen Big Daddy or Gran Turino, he acted like that. I mean he can choose how he reacts....

Think of it this way: You have to remember 20 things when you teach kids. Don't say 'you guys', tell kids when they've done something wrong. Conduct properly while listening. Don't be nervous. Don't be overwhelmed. Fail to do one of these, and you get an explanation about how dumb it is.
 

Recoleta

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Yeah, and I'm wondering, what is approachability and support? What is being a pushover, and what is being a drill seargant?

These are my personal definitions:

Approachability: The open attitude that a teacher has that allows students to come and ask questions or make comments without fear of rejection, mockery, or sarcastic/degrading remarks. It is communicating to your students that you exist as their teacher for their well-being and that you are willing to help them and want to see them succeed in their learning.

Support: Listening and being sensitive to the needs of your students...and doing something about it. Supporting students can take many forms: explaining things again, practice, providing examples, diagrams, models, asking where you're getting lost and walking you through it, etc. It's an effort teachers take that makes the material comprehensible to the learner.

Pushover: When the students set the tone and direction of the class...and it is a direction that does not align with the teacher's goals and objectives for the class. This happens a lot when you're too nice and accommodating, because the kids (especially) will start to see just how much they can manipulate and get away with (taking advantage of your niceness). I've been in the pushover situation before, and it's not fun, but finding a balance is something that comes with time and experience. Consistency and the ability to enforce your rules greatly helps you not become a pushover.

Drill Seargant: A teacher who only likes to hear their own voice. These teachers do not care so much about your opinion so much as they do their own. There is no compromise, no feedback, or freedom. -- From what I've seen, the students who have this type of teacher are well-behaved but are poorly disciplined. The moment the teacher is out of the room, chaos ensues. When the teacher is in the room the only motivation for learning is the avoidance of consequences...such a shame. I believe learning should be an enjoyable process.

I approach him for help twice, and both times, he's just... mean. If you've ever seen Big Daddy or Gran Turino, he acted like that. I mean he can choose how he reacts....

Sounds lame :thumbdown: I love it when hard-working students ask me questions. I mean, it's not like you missed a class and then at the next lecture asked in the middle of the lesson, "Ummm what'd I miss yesterday?" Is he really holding the class to high standards, or is he just belittling you all to make himself feel all-important?

Think of it this way: You have to remember 20 things when you teach kids. Don't say 'you guys', tell kids when they've done something wrong. Conduct properly while listening. Don't be nervous. Don't be overwhelmed. Fail to do one of these, and you get an explanation about how dumb it is.

Teaching kids requires a lot more than 20 things to remember ;) Truly, there are no hard and fast rules to teaching. I mean, teachers are only human. Our personalities as well as our best and worst qualities are reflected when we teach. It'd be impossible for me to never be overwhelmed or nervous. I say "you guys" all the time, and it's not always so important to tell the kids that they've done "something wrong" as much as it is finding out why they are behaving in that manner. Sometimes the fault is my own :)
 

Kalach

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I actually don't know what I sound like to my students. I do know however that I am a hardass, at least in the sense that inside the classroom I'm almost always "on message". The classroom task is the bridge I use to relate to the students. So there is as much focusing on the person as the content of the task allows. (But actually, since it's language class and the topic is often real life student experience, me being task-focused does give a lot of leeway to be student-focused too, but still....). I more and more recognise being sternly, even exclusively, task-focused as sub-optimal. I'm fairly strongly aware that were the students to feel an authentic, warm and enjoyable connection to me as a person, they would probably perform better and my task would be easier.

But I'm not NF, so I'll always first and foremost be task-oriented and be a hardass about goals. That's just the way it is, and if in the student's life, I were to be their only teacher, they'd have been short-changed. There it is.

It's old now, and there're undoubtedly much better books available, but a particular eye-opener for classroom people theory for me was, People Types & Tiger Stripes. Third Edition by GD Lawrence, ENTP.
 

run

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Well the thing is, if we had prepared fully, we wouldn't have to come up to him for help. But then again, coming to him is preparing.
 

Kalach

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Does it help if you know INTJs use "Chart the Course" interaction style? They'll tell you what to do and then you're supposed to do it by yourself. Or to put it another way, they don't want to be the one supplying the energy to get something done, just the direction.

Why? Who knows. Function order or something. But one effect is, people seeking further connection to the INTJ teacher usually find themselves disappointed, even harshly rebuffed.

An INTJ teacher could put some effort into being more human, but that being warm and caring and motivating crap is hard work, and teaching is his job, so if he's warm once, he'll have to be warm every day with everyone, and pretty soon he'll hate his job. If he doesn't already.

Pity the poor robot.
 

Recoleta

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Does it help if you know INTJs use "Chart the Course" interaction style? They'll tell you what to do and then you're supposed to do it by yourself. Or to put it another way, they don't want to be the one supplying the energy to get something done, just the direction.

Why? Who knows. Function order or something. But one effect is, people seeking further connection to the INTJ teacher usually find themselves disappointed, even harshly rebuffed.

An INTJ teacher could put some effort into being more human, but that being warm and caring and motivating crap is hard work, and teaching is his job, so if he's warm once, he'll have to be warm every day with everyone, and pretty soon he'll hate his job. If he doesn't already.

Pity the poor robot.

Robots are incapable of changing of their own accord. Humans are not (and no, INTJs do not count as robots). I don't think it's a matter of extremes. Teaching is not simply choosing either 1) always be unapproachable or 2) always be full of rainbows, hugs, and smiles. Compromise does exist and you can always regulate your mood accordingly.

Heaven forbid an INTJ teacher (or ANY teacher) work on their weaker functions and try to interact with their students on a human level. I mean, they just might be pleasantly surprised and might even learn something new themselves. Sure, it's the teacher's job to teach, and it's the student's job to learn -- but if the teacher has their own immovable approach to teaching and the students hold their immovable approach to learning (but that does not align with approach the professor), what happens then? The students are berated for "not doing it right?" Who is the one getting robbed? I mean, Gardner's theory of Multiple Intelligences and the theory of teaching modalities certainly exist for a reason. Teaching is not just a data and fact-driven field. Undeniably, there exists an affective component that impacts student learning.
 

Kalach

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Oh, I agree. And I agree that working on the weaker functions is important, not just for the students' benefit, but for the maturity of the person who is the teacher.

It's a fine line, though, between becoming a better person and walking too far away from who you really are. That way lies teacher burnout.
 

run

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Does it help if you know INTJs use "Chart the Course" interaction style? They'll tell you what to do and then you're supposed to do it by yourself. Or to put it another way, they don't want to be the one supplying the energy to get something done, just the direction.

Why? Who knows. Function order or something. But one effect is, people seeking further connection to the INTJ teacher usually find themselves disappointed, even harshly rebuffed.

So... are we stuck? Do I have to go to teacher A for help with class B?

I don't think it has to be that way...
 

Kalach

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You could try getting him fired.


Generally speaking, if someone comes to me for help, I will tend to outline solutions, and that's it. I'll also like it better if opportunities are made to arise within class session time to address problems. (Efficiency: one person's problem becomes everyone's solution.)

Broadly, I'm usually pretty bad at on-the-spot individual solutions. I prefer global solutions. And if one person's difficulty is presented to me, and I have time to incorporate that problem into the larger strategy for the class as a whole, then I'll be able to come up with something, maybe something good. This tends to mean that, say, if students are looking for individual support, they won't obviously get it, but something will happen to the overall strategy in the class that may (much like a butterfly in the Amazon makes a tornado) yield longer term results.

Or not.

But generally speaking, if the student is already working on their own solution, I'll probably support them and enjoy saying something with them about what's going on. I admire and enjoy independence in students, and I get involved. It's a little bit backwards as far as teacher-student relationships stereotypically go, but there it is.

Harsh, I suppose. But then, different teachers provide different experiences. What kind of help do you want?
 

run

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The other thing I'm wondering is: When you get to college, does being the positive-helpful guy go out the window? Should you have learned how to learn by now?
 

rhinosaur

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I'm a TA for upper college level chemistry, and I usually try to put on the patient-positive-helpful pants. The only exception is when I get emailed easy questions that I know they can figure out on their own... I will usually wait a half-day or so before I answer those.

I had a student this last semester who came to my office every single time I had office hours, and would stay the entire time. Essentially using me as a free tutor. I was happy to help, especially if it meant he would learn more, or gain an extracurricular interest in the topics... but man, it was frustrating to see him struggle. He wasn't that bright, maybe didn't know the prerequisites well enough, or had an undiagnosed LD or something, so he made frequent mistakes. I really became invested in his progress, so it was kind of painful to watch.

Of course it could also have been that I simply didn't know how to teach to him.
 

run

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I had a student this last semester who came to my office every single time I had office hours, and would stay the entire time. Essentially using me as a free tutor.

K but did you get annoyed when he came unprepared, and did you let it show?

If your student's failing to do something that was taught on the first day, would you get irritated? Every time?

I'd say, justified or not, that it's not beneficial to bark at your kids
 

rhinosaur

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K but did you get annoyed when he came unprepared, and did you let it show?

If your student's failing to do something that was taught on the first day, would you get irritated? Every time?

I'd say, justified or not, that it's not beneficial to bark at your kids

No, he was usually reasonably prepared, as far as I could tell, which was one of the reasons I was happy to help. In fact, if we came across a question he hadn't prepared for, he would often suggest that we come back to it during our next session. In contrast, for other courses in other semesters, I've had students who would come and expect me to give them answers. When that happens, I give them only as much as they need to do the work, and then step back to let them work, move on to the next problem, or whatever.

I think you might be misinterpreting my earlier post... I don't think I've ever barked at a student. I got frustrated with this guy's work, because it seemed like he was making little progress for the amount of time and effort he was spending on the material. I never shared these frustrations with him, because I felt that he was getting just as frustrated. I don't know what it was... maybe I just didn't have that connection with him.
 

run

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I'm talking about whether its ok or not to be frustrated with a student's unpreparedness. Yeah, its a waste of the professor's time, but the professor chose to deal with that when he chose to become a teacher.
 

Kalach

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I call dual-seeking behaviour.


And an INTJ may pretend to be ENTP when he's in front of class, but one-on-one he's about as likely to be an ENFJ as he is to give you a big fat kiss on the lips.
 
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And an INTJ may pretend to be ENTP when he's in front of class, but one-on-one he's about as likely to be an ENFJ as he is to give you a big fat kiss on the lips.

This. Totally.

I get annoyed when people don't prepare for class. I don't take it out on them, but I make sure that they're aware of how I feel. Often, I'd comment something like "It's useless coming to tutorials if you don't even read through the prac." or "I'm not going to give you the answers, that's not what this is for". However, for things that require conceptual understanding, I'm perfectly happy coming in for hours that I'm not paid for, just to make sure that they "get it" and won't fail out of the class.

Generally I could be harsher on them, and the guy who runs the biochemistry course TELLS me this. He wants me to run the class like a drill sergeant. I also feel like a pushover for not giving people deadlines that they have to meet for certain parts of the class, e.g. "you have to have this done by 3pm". I do, however, walk around and LOOK at them if they're not focussed. I also continually ask them where they're at. This keeps them on (more or less) the same page.

I'm told that I'm approachable, that none of my students fear me. I hold back on cutting remarks, and always frame my teaching as "concern". However, I don't get too close to them. They're aware that they can talk to me about the syllabus, about the class and various career/class/major options. As far as my personal life/view goes, that's completely out of the question.
 
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