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  1. #21
    Senior Member wyrdsister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    In fact, science ruled as part of the Enlightenment 200+ years ago and persisted throughout the Modernist movement (up until maybe the late 60's or early 70's)... and failed, which is why Postmodernism sprang up and supplanted it. It answered the "how," not the "why," and people were looking for more.
    But can't this *more* be found in modern science?
    Wyrd is a concept in Anglo-Saxon and Nordic culture roughly corresponding to fate. It is ancestral to Modern English weird, which has acquired a very different meaning.

  2. #22
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyrdsister View Post
    But that is not a rational or logical stance. If god created us, he created us with the propensity for questioning and rational thought.

    What makes you think that God created you for a purpose that suits your likings or anything that you can understand?

    Maybe God created the ethereal form of man, but what we understand for man to be could be an arbitrary product of nature. God is unfathomable so we can never know what he created us for. This has nothing to do with the kind of a God that the ignorant Biblical literalists believe in.

  3. #23
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Nope science cant go there. It can only describe what happens in this world. The problems of science and philosophy are of understanding this world and Gods are to be left on the outside.
    No, that's not the case. Religion and science do intersect in terms of beliefs. I'm talking religion - codified theology, doctrine, ritualism.

    And I have a hard time understanding how metaphysics can be considered "part of this world"... considering it deals with a lot of issues that would be viewed as esoteric. I'd also disagree that theology and philosophy can be completely separated. Their origins are very intertwined - scholasticism and its like.

    Also, religion is not only about Gods, and many older religions are a cross between science and philosophy (shamanism via shintoism, for example).

    More than that, the basis of science is philosophy, a form of epistemology. A subset of philosophy is also theology. Their domains are not as absolute as you say - they differ in their forms of knowledge.

    I'm asking if you are saying that you positively support one epistemological theory over the other, in that only the scientific method can determine truth.

    Evolution tells us nothing about eschatology or metaphysics, it can only tell us that perhaps man evolved from apes, but to say that from this it follows that God does not exist, or what our creator may have looked like, or what happens after death would just be mere conjecture. We dont have enough to speculate from what we've gained from either science or philosophy.
    No, not so. The current limits of science do not need to project into the future. I asked how you felt about religion overlapping onto science, which has happened, is happening and will continue to happen.

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    The task of the community should be no other than GIVING you an environment where you can function best so you could do a better job in your solitary meditations. Nother other than this. True religion has no public aspects.
    Meh. I disagree with this. I don't think the individual is necessarily the focus of the faith, although a person has to have a personal faith if he is to function in the group. I think we are both unique as well as integrated with each other.

    (Isn't that how normal communities work, regardless of religion or not? A family is an integrated unit with its own rituals and structures, yet each member is still an individual, not losing his or her unique identity.)

    Quote Originally Posted by wyrdsister View Post
    But you can treat others with respect and have a moral code without having a religion so why religion?
    Well, for a faith such as Christianity (and some others), which places such a large emphasis on how people relate to each other and the "Body of Christ" (i.e., all Christians together as an integrated unit, working as one even while retaining identity), religious structure allows people to worship together and work effectively together, just as a secular team might develop its own rituals to build comraderie and/or create a common narrative that the team could cling to in order to build unity.

    [btw, I am assuming by "religion" you mean the structure of rituals, organization, rules, and what not that govern the institution. When I refer to religion, I mean that -- as well as the understanding that religion might be structure, but it is not the "spark" of life which necessarily begins in the individual and is shared among the Body, like many people lighting their candles at a Christmas Eve service.]

    I don't think we can take religion out of the personal sphere into the social sphere without some form of structure to help guide the interaction and provide a framework.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyrdsister View Post
    But you can treat others with respect and have a moral code without having a religion so why religion?
    I'll say this again... I believe religion gives us meaning to life. That we like living with a purpose. It doesn't directly affect the way you act, rather it affects your attitude... and from altering your attitude change your approach to life and indirectly affects your interactions with other people.

  6. #26
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyrdsister View Post
    But can't this *more* be found in modern science?
    Postmodernism goes all the way back to the human problem of egocentricity and it was erected upon the Perversion of Kant's teaching. Postmodernists believe that the truth is confined only to human perceptions, Kant taugh the opposite of this, that the truth has nothing to do with human perceptions and we can never grasp it.

  7. #27
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Meh. I disagree with this. I don't think the individual is necessarily the focus of the faith, although a person has to have a personal faith if he is to function in the group. I think we are both unique as well as integrated with each other.

    (Isn't that how normal communities work, regardless of religion or not? A family is an integrated unit with its own rituals and structures, yet each member is still an individual, not losing his or her unique identity.)


    You've skated right over your point.

    Goal in life-Find true spirituality in your solitary meditations.

    Purpose of the community-Help you do this.

  8. #28
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyrdsister View Post
    But can't this *more* be found in modern science?
    Care to explain to me what "modern science" means to you? I think this is a case of misunderstanding of what science really is.

  9. #29
    Senior Member wyrdsister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Its not about you. Religion should be about the Universe as a whole, and not what you need.
    You need to expand this.

    I was talking about what religions ARE not about what the *should* be in an ideological sense.
    Wyrd is a concept in Anglo-Saxon and Nordic culture roughly corresponding to fate. It is ancestral to Modern English weird, which has acquired a very different meaning.

  10. #30
    Senior Member wyrdsister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    Care to explain to me what "modern science" means to you? I think this is a case of misunderstanding of what science really is.
    Science, in the broadest sense, refers to any system of knowledge which attempts to collect accurate information about objective reality and to model this objective reality in a way which can be used algorithmically to make reliable, concrete and quantitative predictions about future events and observations. In a more restricted sense, science refers to a system of acquiring knowledge based on the scientific method, as well as to the organized body of knowledge gained through such research.

    Science!

    Wyrd is a concept in Anglo-Saxon and Nordic culture roughly corresponding to fate. It is ancestral to Modern English weird, which has acquired a very different meaning.

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