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  1. #11
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyrdsister View Post
    I disagree. They aren't always exploring totally different fields, look at Creationism and Darwinism.

    Darwinism does not tell us anything about God, it can only tell us about what happened in this world, God is outside of it.

    Creationism is mere mythology, it is an arbitrary claim and Kant has shown why it can not be taken seriously. Again because God is outside of our understanding and we try to fit him into our perceptions.

  2. #12
    Senior Member wyrdsister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    Evolution tells us nothing about eschatology or metaphysics, it can only tell us that perhaps man evolved from apes, but to say that from this it follows that God does not exist, or what our creator may have looked like, or what happens after death would just be mere conjecture. We dont have enough to speculate from what we've gained from either science or philosophy.
    Indeed, at present we have no way of knowing if god exists or not, therefore why aren't we all agnostic?
    Wyrd is a concept in Anglo-Saxon and Nordic culture roughly corresponding to fate. It is ancestral to Modern English weird, which has acquired a very different meaning.

  3. #13
    Senior Member wyrdsister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post

    Like others have said, people search for meaning. When they don't have meaning, they lose the will to live.
    But can't you find meaning in science?
    Wyrd is a concept in Anglo-Saxon and Nordic culture roughly corresponding to fate. It is ancestral to Modern English weird, which has acquired a very different meaning.

  4. #14
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    He is right, religion has nothing to do with spirituality, it is slave to the political ends of whatever powers that be. True religion as you'd like to see it is nothing other than your private meditations with God.
    Again, over-generalization and thus a rather cynical perspective.

    If a religious belief includes ideas about how we should treat each other, then obviously a community aspect is important -- and any organization needs a structure simply so that the group can manage to interact together.

    Assuming that a structure/organization is merely a slave to the "powers that be" and assuming the powers that be are necessarily self-centered is an obvious bias... or sloppy thinking.

    Since human beings seem to be relational in nature ... not isolated... true spirituality necessarily must encompass some form of group ritual/rules, not to inhibit but to free up.

    Quote Originally Posted by wyrdsister View Post
    But can't you find meaning in science?
    As a general rule of thumb, science tells me "how" but it does not tell me "why."

    In fact, science ruled as part of the Enlightenment 200+ years ago and persisted throughout the Modernist movement (up until maybe the late 60's or early 70's)... and failed, which is why Postmodernism sprang up and supplanted it. It answered the "how," not the "why," and people were looking for more.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #15
    Senior Member meshou's Avatar
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    For what little "religion" I do have, I acknowledge human experience is, at the very least, not a thing described fully in science, in the same way botany doesn't describe the actual experience of eating a peach.

    I do not believe in the supernatural, although my experience of the world includes experiences I'd call uncanny.
    Let's do this thing.

  6. #16
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyrdsister View Post
    Indeed, at present we have no way of knowing if god exists or not, therefore why aren't we all agnostic?
    No we can take a radical leap of faith. You know like with Pascal's wager, where we say that we have no idea if Christianity is true, but we should accept it just in case that it is, because the rewards would be something that we can not afford to miss out on.

  7. #17
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Again, over-generalization and thus a rather cynical perspective.

    If a religious belief includes ideas about how we should treat each other, then obviously a community aspect is important -- and any organization needs a structure simply so that the group can manage to interact together.

    Assuming that a structure/organization is merely a slave to the "powers that be" and assuming the powers that be are necessarily self-centered is an obvious bias... or sloppy thinking.

    Since human beings seem to be relational in nature ... not isolated... true spirituality necessarily must encompass some form of group ritual/rules, not to inhibit but to free up.
    The task of the community should be no other than GIVING you an environment where you can function best so you could do a better job in your solitary meditations. Nother other than this. True religion has no public aspects.

    As for the problem of human ego-centricity, I recommend the reading of Kant's meritorious essay 'What is Enlightenment' where he asserts that true wisdom consists in seeing reality as not in accord to your perception, but in the way you play out in the big picture.

    Much like Rick Warren started his Purpose driven life with these words ' it is not about you'.

    And the thesis of Critique of Pure reason is that the world that we perceive as fundamental and real is actually a product of our imagination and we are unable to grasp the thing in itself, as this attests to our inherent egocentricity.

    This is the famous phenomena/noumena problem

  8. #18
    Senior Member wyrdsister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Again, over-generalization and thus a rather cynical perspective.

    If a religious belief includes ideas about how we should treat each other, then obviously a community aspect is important -- and any organization needs a structure simply so that the group can manage to interact together.
    But you can treat others with respect and have a moral code without having a religion so why religion?
    Wyrd is a concept in Anglo-Saxon and Nordic culture roughly corresponding to fate. It is ancestral to Modern English weird, which has acquired a very different meaning.

  9. #19
    Senior Member wyrdsister's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SolitaryWalker View Post
    No we can take a radical leap of faith. You know like with Pascal's wager, where we say that we have no idea if Christianity is true, but we should accept it just in case that it is, because the rewards would be something that we can not afford to miss out on.
    But that is not a rational or logical stance. If god created us, he created us with the propensity for questioning and rational thought.
    Wyrd is a concept in Anglo-Saxon and Nordic culture roughly corresponding to fate. It is ancestral to Modern English weird, which has acquired a very different meaning.

  10. #20
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wyrdsister View Post
    But you can treat others with respect and have a moral code without having a religion so why religion?

    Its not about you. Religion should be about the Universe as a whole, and not what you need.

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