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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopyPaste View Post
    Christians still enjoyed life to the fullest, they still loved, they still laughed, they still worked, they still had families, and even more so, they did it with an uncommonly joyful heart because of the hope (even if in vain) inside of them. It's a joy that's not as clearly defined by Islam in my opinion. If Christians are right? Wow....there wouldn't be words to describe the awesomeness.

    Under the "rules" or guidelines of Biblical Christianity, can gay people marry or love without discrimination? Not in most churches I know of. Can Christians love and marry whoever they want, even non Christians? Not according to most Christians I know. Can women experience a full, individual, free life without submitting to men? Not most of the Christian women I know. How do people laugh their way through life if others are looking over their shoulders telling them what things are supposed to be funny and what things aren't because they're "ungodly"? If you are happy with Christianity, your family, your love, etc. that is wonderful. But it might not be everyone else's definition of happiness in this short life.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Perhaps the Bible should be edited yet again to fit in with a more modern PC philosophy. Who knows what the original writings used to project to the reader before the crusaders edited it to fit in with the more modern savage philosophy of the thier time
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  3. #13
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    I'm agnostic.

    I think that the concept of religion that we have today (in most religions) is that we have to give up on humanly concerns (animalistic concerns) and focus on the spiritual. That the reward for having a shitty life now is that I can have a wonderful life later. In order to do this, I must only think of this one deity, praise and worship him/her as hard as I can, and beg constantly for forgiveness - so I can get into this place, where I can sit at his feet and worship him more. Deny my inherent natures, live in self-denial all for the possibility that I may be allowed in to beg some more at this other place. What's really the point of that?

    But that's not why I'm agnostic. I can believe in God much easier than I can believe in the human construct of God. I'm agnostic because I simply don't know anything about our purpose or our abilities beyond the self or the purpose of the entire universe. I can only assume it was created by someone, but who knows who or why or how.

    The big bang to me could easily be a sperm colliding with an egg, and the earth the offspring. And all of the cells in our bodies can be thinking that our bodies are their infinite galaxies. The cycle could be infinite. Who knows? And who is audacious enough to pretend to know?

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    The Bible says that, but then it also goes on to say things like this:

    "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come" (Matthew 12:31-32; see also Mark 3:28-29; Luke 12:10).

    "And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. . . . And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. . . . And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire" (Mark 9:43-47; see also Matthew 5:29-30; 18:8-9; Luke 20:46-47).

    "Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body" (1 Corinthians 11:27-29).

    And these quotes are from the New Testament, which is a lot less harsh than the Old Testament.
    Oh, I see now. Questions like these come up quite often in regards to Biblical consistency. I didn't intend for this thread to be a defense of Christianity or validity of the Bible... believe me, I'm certain this thread can go on forever about this stuff. But it boils down to context and translation, for instance, regarding your first concern (and paraphrasing a specific response to this question):

    In Matthew 12:31. In this verse the Pharisees, having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that He was possessed by the demon "Beelzebub" (Matthew 12:24). In Mark 3:30, Jesus is very specific about what exactly they did to commit "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit."
    So what its speaking of has to do with accusing Jesus--as he was on earth at that particular time--of being demon-possessed. There are other ways to blaspheme the Holy Spirit but the accusation against Jesus was the blasphemy that was unpardonable. This unpardonable sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be done today because Jesus Christ is not on earth but is seated at the right hand of God.

    Remember too, that was the whole purpose of Jesus on earth, since He came it "trumps" many of the rules or "harshness" you speak of in the Old Testament. One such verse that exemplifies that is 1 John 1:9 “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness”

    If you'd truly like an understanding of the questions you have, feel free to PM me and I can help point you in the right direction, but like I said, this isn't intended to be a thread on apologetics.

  5. #15
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Don't see this as an attack of any kind. This is just my view as clear as I currently can describe, on how I feel towards this subject. It is in no way intended to stir or ruse.



    Atheism can only be seen as the least rational of beliefs, if you assume that by following Atheism, you are missing out on some sort of oppertunity or 'gift'. And if that is the only reason you choose to follow a belief. Then in my opinion you're nothing more then a hipocrit (read: Only if this was your only reason to follow a belief.)



    1) I have pretty high standards, and many religions would mark me as a model citizen and person in most, if not all, concrete ways. I am in no way a bad or evil person and live my life as a good man. Better then many religious people according to my(and their) standards even.
    2) I'm simply incapable of belief in such manner, why? As far as I can tell, it's just how my brain works. I wouldn't just call it skepticism and let it rest with that. It's more than that, I would simply feel I am cutting myself off from discovering more. I'd be limiting my lifestyle and narrow my view, if I was to belief any religion unconditionally and let it rest with that. I believe that comitting myself to a belief, impairs my freedom even in some ways. I have the need to question and rationalize heavy subjects such as this. (I wouldn't be happy with myself any other way.)
    3) I don't disrespect anyone believing in any religion that supports peace and happiness. (I'm much less respectful however of cults that promote mass suicides, mass murders, extreme for of redemptions and various forms of appauling sacrifice in the name of a belief however.).
    If someone believes in for example christianity, and is happy with him/herself and their choice. Then that's awesome for him/her. Keep at it! I'm not the one to say you're wrong in any way. On the contrary. What works best for you, indirectly works best for me too. If you're happy, I enjoy you. If you're not happy, I don't enjoy you. If religion makes you happy, it makes me happy.
    4) If a God or diety tells you to believe in him, and if you don't, you're eternally doomed. Then I would rather be eternally doomed. Because one thing is for sure, and that is following a diety that tells me to impair my freedom of choice on punishment of eternal damnation just because of my belief, doesn't deserve my respect. I don't see 'belief' as a concrete item that people can/should be judged for. If anything, people should be judged by their way of life and their effect on 'humanity'. I need to believe in God in order to save myself? Screw God. Hell, here I come. (I'm very serious about this, and I am honestly willing to bet eternal pain and sorrow for this. And although I obviously don't believe in hell, I still can't say with certainty that there is no hell.)



    So, basicly, it's just the way my mind works. You might believe I'm stubborn, heck even stupid, that's entirely your right (And I don't really care.). It's just who I am and what I stand for. And nothing will change my mind about this.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #16
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    My apologies to the believers out there. i'm just basically Ne-ing the shit out of my own belief. I believe also that the good book does have things in it that reenforce our lifestyle or remind us about that little spot found in all of us (Karma/Conscience) which could never have been edited due to the logical value. We gotta keep that baby around awhile.

    Unless, the new testament is in some ways like the book of Mormon or the Quran. Then sure, keep them in check...athiests. Just be very careful and PC how you keep those texts in check i know i am.

    Also, maybe the 10 commandments had 9 more added to (thou shalt not kype peoples shit steal). All the others could easily fall under that catagory. Seems redundant to me but maybe 9 more were added for clarification to those who tried to justify thier sins.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    I'm agnostic.

    I think that the concept of religion that we have today (in most religions) is that we have to give up on humanly concerns (animalistic concerns) and focus on the spiritual. That the reward for having a shitty life now is that I can have a wonderful life later. In order to do this, I must only think of this one deity, praise and worship him/her as hard as I can, and beg constantly for forgiveness - so I can get into this place, where I can sit at his feet and worship him more. Deny my inherent natures, live in self-denial all for the possibility that I may be allowed in to beg some more at this other place. What's really the point of that?

    But that's not why I'm agnostic. I can believe in God much easier than I can believe in the human construct of God. I'm agnostic because I simply don't know anything about our purpose or our abilities beyond the self or the purpose of the entire universe. I can only assume it was created by someone, but who knows who or why or how.

    The big bang to me could easily be a sperm colliding with an egg, and the earth the offspring. And all of the cells in our bodies can be thinking that our bodies are their infinite galaxies. The cycle could be infinite. Who knows? And who is audacious enough to pretend to know?
    Perfect answer.

    The institution and political machine known as religion and the human perception of "God", has never settled with me. All I have, as far as I know, is right now. I can't be bothered with outdated social mores on how to live my life. Nevermind the mystical stories passed as fact. As a woman of science, I'm less inclined to believe in the existence of a higher power. Yet, I can't completely rule it out either.

    Thus, I'm agnostic.

  8. #18
    almost nekkid scantilyclad's Avatar
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    I was raised in a southern baptist church, and for about the first 10 years of my life I believed what these people were telling me, and i tried to abide by the "good book". I started asking questions about the bible when i was about 11 or 12, because i didn't understand how some of the stories could be true. The teachers would tell me that i had to have "faith". I never had faith that any of the stories i read in the bible were true. They were all too similar to fairy tales to me. It's stuff that i wanted to be true, but i just couldn't believe it. I hoped for a long time that when i died i would go to heaven, but i eventually questioned the Bibles predictions too. I have been hearing people saying "there are signs of the apocalypse now" or "so and so is the true Antichrist" almost every year for the past 20 years. I've watched people who believed in God be some of the worst human beings i could imagine. I've seen people kill their children because "god told them to". Believing in this stuff is highly irrational to me.

    I can see how atheism can be irrational to a degree, but maybe believing in things in general is irrational. I trust science, because it can at least give me an explanation other than " you have to have faith". I honestly don't know if there is a god, or a correct religion to follow, and i don't care. I don't want to live my life according to a book. I have strong morals and values without relying on a god or a bible or prayer to make my life better.

    I am an atheist, because it makes the most sense to me and i have conflicting values with some religious institutions. I can appreciate other people's views because if something is making someone happy, then i don't plan to tell them they are wrong.
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  9. #19
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopyPaste View Post
    What do atheists/agnostics have to lose if they're wrong? Even if it's not the consequence of Christianity, but of some other belief system?
    Taking the point of the "consequence" I'm assuming you're blunting the use of the term of "eternal damnation", and maybe I'm wrong to assume that, but that's what I'll issue with here.

    Taking the Christian idea of hell, this never made sense to me, the problems I always had with it were:

    1. Why would an all-loving God allow those he loves to be tortured for eternity? Surely being God he could put a stop to it if he wanted.

    2. If God did want people to be tortured for all eternity, why would Satan agree with that? Surely it would be more satanic of Satan to reward those that did ill on earth? The only possible solution is that God and Satan aren't enemies and are just colleagues with a binding contract.

    And then I started thinking, what if Satan is rewarding those in hell, would God tell anyone? Would he cover it up for his own needs? Would he still carry on saying, "Yeah, hell's a horrible place. You really want to keep on the righteous path and come my way."

    I mean ultimately Christianity is a polytheistic religion with a God of Good and a God of Evil. And for Catholics the saints are actually demigods. But because the God of Good, unimaginatively referred to as "God", is bound to always win this is supposed to mean its a monotheistic religion? Then I thought, what if its actually the God of Evil who's winning and he actually managed to win everybody's favour?

    What if Satan was the one who wrote the bible? What if he put all his thoughts and feelings in there and that to go against everything in the bible is actually the righteous path? What if God just assumed that people would realise it was filled with evil and that everyone would go against it?

    I was brought up as a Catholic, I'm now an atheist, but my understanding as a kid was that good people went to heaven. I never understood why people who didn't believe in God weren't good people, how does what someone think is the truth have anything to with goodness?

    And two other things have always confused me:

    1. Jesus died for our sins.

    Is it just me, or is that sentence just nonsense? How does it work? What is the relationship between Jesus' death and everybody else's forgiveness? Just because it's said over and over again, how does it translate from one to the other? And does it work with any verb and abstract noun? If you can say "Jesus died for our sins" can you also say "Jesus bought cigarettes for our penis envy?" If one sounds meaningless, then surely the other has to be.

    2. God's plan.

    What can this possibly be? Think about it. People are always saying things are part of God's plan. But supposing he made this plan before the universe existed, what could possibly want with us in advance? Does he have a human-shaped bike lock that he lost the original key to and he's waiting millions of generations for the perfect person to be born that fits it correctly so he can ride down to the dairy to buy some milk?

    I know this doesn't actually answer any of the questions in the OP, but I kind of got on a rant there.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

    It's like a kind of torture,
    To have to watch this show.

  10. #20
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    ^You're thinking on the very same plane as me, in regards to formulated questions. The possibilites are endless. I could never find solace in believing I know the truth, and damn is it frustrating.

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