User Tag List

12311 Last

Results 1 to 10 of 143

  1. #1
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,004

    Default A question for Atheists

    Before I ask, I would like to say that I'm agnostic, and that I basically have my own philosophy/faith and I couldn't peg it on anything specific besides some form of Paganism (hence the jewelry if you would think to say something about that). That is a different topic though. You may like to note that I give science a lot of merit (I'm an evolutionist etc).

    So, what makes science work? What makes reality able to function the way it does? I don't think anything could just *poof* here, not at all. What is it that started everything? If you say the big bang etc, what made THAT happen?

    This is why I'm agnostic. Everything must have a cause, and the only thing that I can think of that could cause that would be some sort of higher being, or anything else (I'm unsure, but there must be something higher other than what there is). But something must be causing things to work/happen the way that they do.

    I don't want to be flamed, I want answers. I have been curious about this for a while.

    EDIT: MY CONCLUSION- http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...tml#post623392

    This post no longer means anything. Thanks.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  2. #2
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    Well, this is a question that I won't see any human answer for a very long time to come, if ever.

    But my personal thoughts on this is basicly as follows. Don't try to disect every sentence I am about to say as I am aware it's filled with subjective analogies. But our language is just flawed in this sense.




    Rationally, there was once nothing. No matter, no space, no time, no blackness.

    Now I just said a contradiciton in itself, because there could never have been nothing any time in the past. Absolute nothing in itself does not, never has and never will exist. It is incapable of existing. But bare with me as I try to explain my view. :P


    I think that logical reason assumes that absolute nothing can not exist. And therefor, infinite space must exist. Infinite to all sides.

    Now the big bang theory is based on the fact that matter as we know it keeps expanding. And thus all matter as we know it might have at one point started at a single point.

    So, we have infinite space, because absolute nothing can not exist. But there has to have been a single moment in time (Time, as we know it, does not in fact exist. But is a reference for us to measure movement.) where infinite space was born.And the very instant before this was born, there was nothing. Absolutely nothing, not even time. But as we now have an infinite space, we have several physical laws. But we lack the quantifiable means to give this endless space meaning.

    Density being the most important one in my 'theory'. I believe that during the creation of infinite space. (I keep saying creation but there technically was no creation, it just started to exist because it has to exist.) there was a reaction that created variances in density in that endless space. To quantify the meaning of space.

    Possibly as a big bang of sorts (or multiple big bangs), and through density, matter took shape. Through matter, movement. And through movement, time as we know it. Now in our universe, all matter, planets, expand here and there, all having gravitational influence on one and other. Creating a web that quantifies the space inbetween them.

    But what if planets move so far apart, that at some point, the gravitational forces between two systems become null? Ie. a gap forms inbetween space that suddenly does not have quantifiable means of existance? Then according to this theory, another big bang will happen, in that space. And again, matter will be born.

    So what my theory assumes, is that space is infinite, but so is matter within space. And it could very well be that I am typing this message an infinite number of times across an infinite number of places within our universe. Like an infinite three dimensional grid that in which every point keeps repeating itself. Like similar tiles on a wall. At least, assuming there were an infinite amount of big bangs happening across the infinite space that was birthed out of nothingness all at a set interval from one and other.

    It's also possible that there was only one big bang, and through a singular yet extremely dense particle (infinitely dense) one big bang occured sufficiant to quantify infinite space through an infinite amount of force. But that particle did not have any means of remaining stable inside this infinite space and therefor blew up expaning in matter as we know it, slowly stabalizing itself in lesser densities through forces on and in itself.



    I could go on for a few more hours like this, but hey, it's all based on a hunch. We'll most likely never find out the truth. :P

  3. #3
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4
    Posts
    7,233

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Before I ask, I would like to say that I'm agnostic, and that I basically have my own philosophy/faith and I couldn't peg it on anything specific besides some form of Paganism (hence the jewelry if you would think to say something about that). That is a different topic though. You may like to note that I give science a lot of merit (I'm an evolutionist etc).

    So, what makes science work? What makes reality able to function the way it does? I don't think anything could just *poof* here, not at all. What is it that started everything? If you say the big bang etc, what made THAT happen?

    This is why I'm agnostic. Everything must have a cause, and the only thing that I can think of that could cause that would be some sort of higher being, or anything else (I'm unsure, but there must be something higher other than what there is). But something must be causing things to work/happen the way that they do.

    I don't want to be flamed, I want answers. I have been curious about this for a while.
    I think it's a great question. I don't think anyone knows the answer to that, though. Religion CREATES an answer, but it doesn't know that it's right. Maybe god is defined as the first cause, but that isn't much a god, just another property of nature. (Not to mention that the popular notion of God -- one with personality and intention -- has even less evidence and more problems.) It's also contradictory, since the evidence for god -- the observation that everything has a cause -- contradicts the conclusion that god, an initial causer, has no cause.

    I leave the question open. If anything, I think it makes you wonder and makes you feel like the whole thing, the origin, the thing, the weirdness, and the reason it's here, deserves the same awe and respect as you'd give to a god.

  4. #4
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    8,690

    Default

    If you think about it there is actually no problem with the big bang.

    Because time did not exist before big bang. You intuintivly think that something must have caused but there is no logical need for that.


    You can turn the question the other way around and ask: What did create God? (or how ever you want to call it). So if a God does not have a creator then why the same thing can't work for the universe/multiverse ?

  5. #5
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    So yeah to crudely say my view on this all in 5 easy steps.

    1. 'Nothing' can't exist
    2. Infinite space therefor must exist, to prevent 'nothing' from existing.
    3. To quantify infinite space, an infinitely dense particle must exist that has an infinitely amount of force to support the structure of ininifte space.
    4. Infinitely dense particle did not have the means to remain stable within infinite space.
    5. boom

    (And that all happened instantly, as far as time is concerned.)

  6. #6
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,004

    Default

    That theory sounds good Fluffy, but what makes it all happen?

    I can keep asking this, "what makes that happen" or "what makes this happen" and an answer will never be produced, since we can never know what makes anything happen.

    It's for this reason that atheism in it's own sort of confuses me... people know that you will never know the cause for things yet they believe that there isn't a higher being or some sort of higher force at play here (to make those things happen).

    Again, no flaming. I just want to see other points of view.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  7. #7
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    What makes it all happen? Well, one thing is for sure, we will never be able to recreate the birth of existance. Therefor I think we will never truely be able to know for sure how it all happened.

    You can't create "nothing". So. :P

  8. #8
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    7,917

    Default

    Atheists won't claim to know what started everything, or even if there was a start. That's why you'll find a lot of support for science in the atheist/agnostic community, because we want to know. We're not going to find out by staring at ancient texts, but by generating new ideas that can hold up to scientific scrutiny.

  9. #9
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,004

    Default

    I think that I may have this confused... To clarify Atheism is denying that anything higher makes things work the way that they do, right? That's how I've had it described to me before. I've also had to described as simply not believing in a god, but that there may be some other thing at work influencing the universe.

    If it's not believing in a god then that makes me an atheist too.

    Aj, this is confusing to me because (according to the former definition I gave) Atheists don't think anything influences the way things work, but how can they deny that anything does? I just simply don't know how one could say that the universe works the way it does "just because".

    I doubt anyone is going to find any answers via science... since you can't identify what makes science work through science.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  10. #10
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Atheists won't claim to know what started everything, or even if there was a start. That's why you'll find a lot of support for science in the atheist/agnostic community, because we want to know. We're not going to find out by staring at ancient texts, but by generating new ideas that can hold up to scientific scrutiny.
    I agree!

    However, anything that happened before the birth of time (matter and its movement) is theoretically impossible to prove and will no doubt always remain a mystery. However, it may still be a quantifiable mystery. Just one that can never be put to a test.

    It's not theoretically impossible to exclude everything but one logical assumption. to trail back to the very birth of time (matter and its movement). To track all movement in the universe to it's starting point once we've mapped enough of stars and calculated their every movement and gravitational forces. Not particularly an easy task however.




    Blackcat, atheism as I see it is not believing in anything that has not yet been scientifically proven. So we create theoretical possibilities, and try to put them to the test. And look for means to trail back along time by putting all of nature's forces (gravitational forces) in one big model, and then start counting backwards. So, an atheist doesn't simply accept anything. But remains skeptical about such theories, until they are proven beyond doubt.

    I have a theory, but I will not blindly believe in my theory. If possible, I will try to prove my theory however, or change it as I see fit upon discovering new insights.

Similar Threads

  1. A question for Atheists AND Agnostics
    By CopyPaste in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 105
    Last Post: 05-28-2009, 04:38 PM
  2. [MBTItm] Question for sensors?
    By SolitaryWalker in forum The SP Arthouse (ESFP, ISFP, ESTP, ISTP)
    Replies: 116
    Last Post: 03-12-2009, 03:30 AM
  3. [NF] Question for NFs.
    By SolitaryWalker in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 116
    Last Post: 02-09-2009, 01:24 AM
  4. A question for all
    By disregard in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 06-03-2007, 08:21 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO