A question for Atheists

[Fluffywolf]

How ridiculous.

We have all these thoughtful, committed atheists here but not one MBTI atheist.

Geez, if you think like that, you could say the same about using language itself. "I'm an atheist, I don't believe in the meaning of language, maaah maaah maaah."

Seriously, MBTI is just categorized behavioral patterns for a slightly better overall understanding, nothing absolute about it. And most certainly has got nothing to do with Atheism.

 

[Mole]

Geez, if you think like that, you could say the same about using language itself. "I'm an atheist, I don't believe in the meaning of language, maaah maaah maaah."

Seriously, MBTI is just categorized behavioral patterns for a slightly better overall understanding, nothing absolute about it. And most certainly has got nothing to do with Atheism.

MBTI is based on blind faith.

MBTI has not been submitted to any peer review journal.

And MBTI has not been submitted to any peer review journal because there is no evidence.

No, MBTI is taken on blind faith.

In fact MBTI is as reliable and valid as astrology.

And no astronomer in the world believes in astrology.

But it does take intellectual integrity and moral courage to come out as an MBTI atheist in this large group of MBTI believers.

 

[Fluffywolf]

But it does take intellectual integrity and moral courage to come out as an MBTI atheist in this large group of MBTI believers.

For your information.

I treat MBTI -exactly- the same way I treat religions.

I use MBTI to get a better understanding on where people come from. How people respond and react differently. MBTI in this is merely a man made category system in which we can organise ourselves in to some extent. It's not absolute. There are no devout MBTI'ists as there would be devout Christians, or anything. It's a completely different item.

MBTI is a means to better understanding. Religion is the same for me, I do take inspiration from religion as I take inspiration from MBTI in order to get to a better understanding of life/people.

You have such an extreme black and white view on some things.

 

[Mole]

For your information.

I treat MBTI -exactly- the same way I treat religions.

I use MBTI to get a better understanding on where people come from. How people respond and react differently. MBTI in this is merely a man made category system in which we can organise ourselves in to some extent. It's not absolute. There are no devout MBTI'ists as there would be devout Christians, or anything. It's a completely different item.

MBTI is a means to better understanding. Religion is the same for me, I do take inspiration from religion as I take inspiration from MBTI in order to get to a better understanding of life/people.

You have such an extreme black and white view on some things.

MBTI purports to be a personality test, but it's not.

MBTI is a lie.

And the only interesting question that remains is -

Why do tens of millions of people believe a lie?

 

[Fluffywolf]

You believe a test to be an ultimatum. But it's not. There is no ultimate or absolute lie, there are only circumstancial facts.

If your view on the world is really that concrete, then why do you converse on this forum? Why do you participate in society? I'm starting to become curious to what your reasons are for living. Because if you believe in truth and lies as strictly as you seem to do, then what point can you possibly have to get out of bed in the morning? Don't you ever like to assume anything for a change?

 

[erm]

A few assumptions I see being made:-

Atheism = Lack of belief in a theistic god. A theistic god is a specific definition of god. (Basically a super-human)

Everything does not need an explanation (necessarily). The simple fact is, try to explain 'everything' and any concept you conjure fits into the category of 'everything', thus you have not given it an outside cause, thus have not explained it. It seems logically impossible to explain everything.

I think most people are agnostic to some degree, seeing as how most agnosticism contradicts neither atheism nor theism.

Finally, my views on the matter of theism:-

Theism, to me, implies the existence of a intelligent god, with a will and a purpose.

Now, my observations have not led me to the conclusion that humans contain no immaterial substance. However, intelligence, will, and purpose, I have concluded, are all material substances.

Intelligence seems explainable via our brains. In simple terms, destroy the brain, destroy intelligence. Will follows the same path. Purpose, however, simply means destination. To say 'I have a purpose', is to say 'I have a destination'. It's a specific goal to reach.

I have yet to encounter anything that does not have a purpose, in that sense.

By this definition, evolution is intelligent (how is it different from our own intelligence?), it has a will (how is it different from our own wills?), and it has a purpose (as does everything).

The same can be said about the observed universe. It created us, it nurtures us, and it has a purpose. I'm not anthropomorphizing the universe, other people anthropomorphize humans. A rock 'wants' to be in the centre of the earth the same way a human 'wants' money, one is no different from the other. Humans are simply harder to understand than gravity's effect on rocks, from a human POV anyway.

I guess you could say the universe is omniscient (it certainly contains more knowledge than any human), certainly omnipresent, but only omnipotent if one defines omnipotence as being capable of all that is logically possible (the only sensible definition). Benevolent? I can't even begin to imagine the workings of a benevolent mind. Afterall, an omnipotent being by the definition I stated, might need to cause suffering in order to be benevolent. So on that matter I don't know.

However, who's to say what is outside the universe? Thus, ultimately, scepticism wins. Theism, in the sense I have presented it, seems quite rational though.

 

[Mole]

You believe a test to be an ultimatum. But it's not. There is no ultimate or absolute lie, there are only circumstancial facts.

If your view on the world is really that concrete, then why do you converse on this forum? Why do you participate in society? I'm starting to become curious to what your reasons are for living. Because if you believe in truth and lies as strictly as you seem to do, then what point can you possibly have to get out of bed in the morning? Don't you ever like to assume anything for a change?

You are asking me to justify my existence.

You are asking me to give reasons for me to live.

I have no need to justify my existence. I have no need to give you a reason for me to live. For my right to life is guaranteed under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights without any need for justification or reasons.

Simply because I am an MBTI atheist, you question my right to be here. You question my right to be alive.

 

[jenocyde]

If your view on the world is really that concrete, then why do you converse on this forum? Why do you participate in society

People can believe whatever they want to, why should it matter to you? That has nothing to do with the innate need for socialization.

 

[Mole]

People can believe whatever they want to, why should it matter to you? That has nothing to do with the innate need for socialization.

And this is a lovely place to socialise. It is well run and tolerant. It has sufficient long term members to give it stability. And sufficient new members to give it life.

And it draws members from all over the world to give it breadth.

And there are contrasts in age, gender, politics and education.

And it is these contrasts that gives the drama that keeps on bringing us back.

I mean who would have thought I would be engaged in an acerbic exchange over atheism with a Dutchman when my favourite humanist was the Dutch Erasmus. And with my sister named after the Dutch Queen.

And who would think I would be writing, at this present moment, to a New York Boulevardier who is a vegan and likes a tipple.

The permutations and combinations are incredible.

Who knows what will happen next?

Except, how nice it is to socialise.

 

[Qre:us]

For your information.

I treat MBTI -exactly- the same way I treat religions.

Don't get taken in by the sway of another's argument until and unless you've confirmed the validity of that argument. With Victor, dare I say, it's not hard.

MBTI is based on blind faith.

MBTI has not been submitted to any peer review journal.

And MBTI has not been submitted to any peer review journal because there is no evidence.

No, MBTI is taken on blind faith.

Bolded: false, which is the crux of your argument, thus, the rest is irrelevant.

Journals that publish articles on MBTI, and all are peer-reviewed (to name a few of the most prolific):
Personality and Individual Differences
Journal of Managerial Psychology
Social Behavior and Personality

How ridiculous.

We have all these thoughtful, committed atheists here but not one MBTI atheist.

Personality exists, it doesn't need faith. God needs faith to 'exist'. Although, might I point out, I am a huge critic of MBTI, especially in terms of how the general population applies the conclusions drawn from it. I question MBTI. I do not question "god" as there is nothing to question.

 

[Mole]

Don't get taken in by the sway of another's argument until and unless you've confirmed the validity of that argument. With Victor, dare I say, it's not hard.

Yes, this is good advice particularly as my sole purpose is to sway you.

To sway you in my direction.

Can you feel yourself swaying to and fro? First you sway this way then you sway that.

And as I fully intend to capture you on one of your swings, it is very wise to first confirm the validity of my argument before you get off the swing.

I sway you in my arms until all your suspicions are allayed. Until you can accept every little thing I say with unalloyed trust.

You see, I am almost Dutch.

 

[Qre:us]

Yes, this is good advice particularly as my sole purpose is to sway you.

To sway you in my direction.

Can you feel yourself swaying to and fro? First you sway this way then you sway that.

You can sway me in your mind whichever way you like. Me? I swing at you - HARD.

 

[Fluffywolf]

People can believe whatever they want to, why should it matter to you? That has nothing to do with the innate need for socialization.

It doesn't matter to me, but it sure seemed to matter to him from his posts. Thus my questions.

Note: I fully respect what Victor says, I fully respect him being here, I'm just trying to figure out why he says the things he says. Out of sheer curiosity.

 

[Mole]

You can sway me in your mind whichever way you like. Me? I swing at you - HARD.

You can swing at me all you like - as long as your swing stops at the tip of my nose.

 

[Qre:us]

You can swing at me all you like - as long as your swing stops at the tip of my nose.

With Pinocchio, and his "ways"...that's kinda hard.

 

[Mole]

I'm just trying to figure out why he says the things he says. Out of sheer curiosity.

I say things because I find them interesting. Or I find them humourous.

Sometimes my feelings take me too far. I go a little over the top. And then I feel a little bad.

But perhaps a key to my mind is an overweening superego that doesn't know its proper place and seeks to control others as well as myself.

This is very interesting for the first thing I do is to accuse others of being controlling when this might be a simple projection of my too strong superego onto someone else.

I need to be rescued from my superego but it would be worse than going into a cage with a savage lion.

Who, who can tame the raging superego?

 

[Fluffywolf]

I suppose that does explain a thing or two.

But I'm not into taming super-ego's, having enough trouble keeping mine in check.

 

[ptgatsby]

We have all these thoughtful, committed atheists here but not one MBTI atheist.

I am. However, unlike you, I do not make up a bunch of reasons for it, and accept what they have right rather than reject the whole package. Rather like how I am an atheist, but take religion's (history of) morality and cultural influence that they contributed.

 

[Jaguar]

But if you can't trust Jim. And you can't trust the Koran. At least trust Mrs Briggs and her daughter, Mrs Myers.

I don't trust those two silly women and I don't trust you either.

 

[matmos]

I don't trust those two silly women and I don't trust you either.

Nobody trusts anybody anymore anyway. Your distrust is just another corpse on the fire.