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  1. #61
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I was under the impression this point of view was agnosticism. Atheists, I thought were those who were relatively positive there was no deity. Which is a position that is as equally based on belief as Theists.
    It's a bit more involved than that, as agnostic and atheist should deal with slightly different concepts (theories of knowledge and theistic belief)...

    Agnosticism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia covers it pretty well.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I was under the impression this point of view was agnosticism. Atheists, I thought were those who were relatively positive there was no deity. Which is a position that is as equally based on belief as Theists.
    That's really an issue of semantics. People want to apply all sorts of special labels to themselves - strong atheists, weak atheists, blah blah.

    Any rational person will admit upfront that one cannot disprove the notion of God per se, just as one cannot disprove that moon monsters rage underneath the core of the moon and guide our actions via telepathy in a proxy war. But it's a silly notion to worship my hypothetical moon monsters, so silly that the probability may as well be zero without actually being zero.

    If that makes any sense.

  3. #63
    Senior Member MrME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    If believers stopped asking questions, there would be no atheists.
    You've got this backwards. People aren't born believers, they're born atheists, and then have religion foisted upon them by their caregivers. It's indoctrination.

    Atheists usually make up two types. Types who were indoctrinated and then rejected it. (That would be me.) And types who were not indoctrinated and never believed in the first place.
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  4. #64
    Senior Member MrME's Avatar
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    Agnosticism deals in knowledge. In that regard, we are all agnostic, none of us know for sure.

    Theism/Atheism deals with belief. I don't believe, therefore, I'm an atheist.
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  5. #65
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Why do you think that? Because believers stop asking questions?
    Believers are warm, fluffy and cuddly with big wide open eyes and the trust of a child.

    While atheists are distrusting, hard and cold with narrowed eyes. And they don't trust what their own parents tell them.

    And a distrusting person can't be trusted.

    And trust is the very basis of society.

    So atheists are social enemies No. 1. They willfully undermine the very trust society is based on.

    No, far better to be a believer.

    I believe I can trust you. Do you believe you can trust me?

    Are you a believer or an atheist?

  6. #66
    Senior Member Jeremy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Believers are warm, fluffy and cuddly with big wide open eyes and the trust of a child.

    While atheists are distrusting, hard and cold with narrowed eyes. And they don't trust what their own parents tell them.

    And a distrusting person can't be trusted.

    And trust is the very basis of society.

    So atheists are social enemies No. 1. They willfully undermine the very trust society is based on.

    No, far better to be a believer.

    I believe I can trust you. Do you believe you can trust me?

    Are you a believer or an atheist?
    I don't know. If trust is the basis of society, then I feel like there is no society. I don't trust the bastards who are leading us into a world of vain materialism, and away from any spiritual reward. I also don't like those who would take us into a world of religious zealotry either. Society is being pulled in so many directions, it's hard to say who to trust anymore.

    I hate society anyway, but that's beside the point. So many ways to control behavior, to control our feelings.. religion being one of those. To be completely honest, I don't think it's fair to call atheists untrustworthy.. they're searching for the truth too, just like anyone else is.

    And now, some persona 4 music.

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  7. #67
    Senior Member MrME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Believers are warm, fluffy and cuddly with big wide open eyes and the trust of a child.

    While atheists are distrusting, hard and cold with narrowed eyes. And they don't trust what their own parents tell them.

    And a distrusting person can't be trusted.

    And trust is the very basis of society.

    So atheists are social enemies No. 1. They willfully undermine the very trust society is based on.

    No, far better to be a believer.

    I believe I can trust you. Do you believe you can trust me?

    Are you a believer or an atheist?
    What a load of bollocks.
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  8. #68
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrME View Post
    What a load of bollocks.
    No Victor is right.

    I'm an atheist and I don't even trust myself! Awful, isn't it?
    How could I trust somebody else, tell me!
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  9. #69
    Senior Member MrME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    No Victor is right.

    I'm an atheist and I don't even trust myself! Awful, isn't it?
    How could I trust somebody else, tell me!
    How do I know you're really a person and not just another computer program? I don't trust you enough to reply.

    Wait ... damn it!
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  10. #70
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    That theory sounds good Fluffy, but what makes it all happen?

    I can keep asking this, "what makes that happen" or "what makes this happen" and an answer will never be produced, since we can never know what makes anything happen.

    It's for this reason that atheism in it's own sort of confuses me... people know that you will never know the cause for things yet they believe that there isn't a higher being or some sort of higher force at play here (to make those things happen).

    Again, no flaming. I just want to see other points of view.
    You are referring to the problem of causation, which obviously nobody has an answer to. You're also making a mistake in assuming that atheists automatically discount the possibility of any power greater than humanity.

    That's not what atheism entails. The dictionary defines it as "disbelief in a God or gods"; few atheists will claim any sort of absolute knowledge that no higher power exists. (Those who do are stupid and not worth listening to.)

    We just don't think that God as a conscious entity as described by popular religion is very plausible. We doubt very seriously that God is a conscious entity of any sort, but we can't explain the beginning of the universe and we don't claim to know that any force higher than humanity does not exist. We don't claim to have solved the problem of causation.



    If "God" to you is defined as some kind of vague spiritual force with no mental consciousness or particular intentions, most atheists don't have a problem with that, because that's not what we're talking about when we say we don't believe in God. By most standards, that isn't really God anyway. But you can find "God" anywhere if you're willing to stretch the definition to fit whatever you want!

    Most people who describe themselves as atheists have a particular conception of God in mind, which they are refuting. The problem lies in the myriad different definitions for the word God. What is "God", anyway? Since anyone can define God any way he wishes, in order for the terms 'atheist' and 'theist' to have any meaning, we must use some sort of standardized definition of God, and we base this on what most self-described believers in God tend to say about their deity. This typically includes:

    --Conscious and self-aware entity
    --Created the universe as a deliberate and conscious action for particular ends
    --Answers prayers by manipulating worldly events based on requests from followers
    --Has a particular moral agenda

    To most atheists, if your "God" doesn't fit these criteria, for our purposes it isn't God. Yes yes, it's fine and good if you believe that God is simply the sum of forces in the universe, or the power of love, or your big toe, or whatever. We're not disputing these when we call ourselves atheists--we're only disputing the popular conceptions of God offered by mainstream religion today.

    This is a very common misconception about atheism. It's just disbelief in a God or gods--we don't have it all figured out; we're just pretty sure (though clearly not absolutely certain) that modern popular conceptions of God are misguided.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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