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  1. #21
    Senior Member Jeremy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    So it's not okay to say the two apples on your table are in fact two apples according to science. But it is okay that to say there's a God almighty up in the heavens that governs our every movement? :P

    Scientists at least try to see the big picture, but slwoly unraveling it piece by piece. The only way we have in trying to unravel it. Through trial and error. Religion cuts people off from that quest and (in my opinion) keeps them in the dark, leaving them with assumptions and beliefs that are unchangable.
    Nah, I'm not saying that either way is right - religion is just as based in our perceptions as science is. I like science and I like religion, I just don't like how extreme people take them to be - my main point is not that one is inherently right or wrong, but both have the potential to be so. I dislike it when people are so stuck to their ideas and beliefs that they reject anything the other side says - and both theists and atheists can have a tendency to do just that. My posts are basically just my justification for taking the middle road - those of us who realize that there is a reason to have aspects of both religion and science when constructing one's worldview, because both have good aspects - but also avoiding the worst of them as well.

    The weakness of this, however, is the lack of certainty. If you take the middle road when it comes to issues like this, you can't convince yourself of the truth, because you understand that the truth is too complex to understand. Some people find that hard to swallow.. when I tell both deeply religious and deeply scientific people about my views, they both react in similar ways - they struggle to understand (as one friend of mine put it) "How I stay sane".
    "Can you set me free from this dark inner world? Save me now, last beats in the soul.."

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  2. #22
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I can totally respect that and I have no intention of changing your opinion.

    But as a rationalist, your view simply doesn't work for me though. I am driven towards a certain extremes. That said, I do take a lot of inspiration from religions, such as buddhism and the like, to form my opinion of what I Believe is important to me. So in that regard, I am like you. But I would never be able to rest myself with just that. And will always seek for more.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Jeremy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I can totally respect that and I have no intention of changing your opinion.

    But as a rationalist, your view simply doesn't work for me though. I am driven towards a certain extremes. That said, I do take a lot of inspiration from religions, such as buddhism and the like, to form my opinion of what I Believe is important to me. So in that regard, I am like you. But I would never be able to rest myself with just that. And will always seek for more.
    Yay for understanding each other! It's what we wanted from this post, right? Blackcat, we're done here.
    "Can you set me free from this dark inner world? Save me now, last beats in the soul.."

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    So yeah to crudely say my view on this all in 5 easy steps.

    1. 'Nothing' can't exist
    2. Infinite space therefor must exist, to prevent 'nothing' from existing.
    3. To quantify infinite space, an infinitely dense particle must exist that has an infinitely amount of force to support the structure of ininifte space.
    4. Infinitely dense particle did not have the means to remain stable within infinite space.
    5. boom

    (And that all happened instantly, as far as time is concerned.)
    String theory has some interesting ideas on the origin of the big bang. If I remember correctly they posit that something did in fact exist and our entire universe is the result of a dimensional membrane collision. Something that happens quite often in the theory.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    That's the problem, though, just like Blackcat said. We don't even know how science works - it's just a given. Science relies on perception as much as anything else, including religion. There's no way to validate ANYTHING, because we don't even know if the tools we're using to validate our existence are what really matters!

    If we can't validate what it is that we base all of our scientific experiments with, then how can we immediately assume that all religions are false? It seems to me like atheism is a philosophy that tries so hard to escape from religion that it backfires, and blindly follows "empirical" evidence.

    I do have my own personal beliefs - basically what is called pantheism, but not naturalistic. I think that the universe as a whole is likely to be somewhat sentient, and that the development of life is most likely a way to figure out something. I don't really know what that something is, but to be honest, if individual people can be sentient beings, what keeps us from making the logical leap that the universe, as a whole, could be one as well? And if that is the case, then could it not be that the universe spurred its own development through the creation of life?

    Oh, I'm getting into my philosophical mode. Either way, that's my feelings. Like Blackcat said, I don't think atheism is necessarily wrong, nor do I think Christianity / other religions are wrong either. But I do feel they're extreme, to the point of ignoring anything that disagrees with your own position on how the world works, so I avoid them.
    Sounds like the universe is a scientist. There is something about that I like.

  6. #26
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    If I remember correctly they posit that something did in fact exist and our entire universe is the result of a dimensional membrane collision.
    Altho it's just as likely that our universe is a result of a reaction in another dimension of sorts and that there is existance beyond 'ours' as we know it. That would still not explain how that other existance came to exist. :P

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Altho it's just as likely that our universe is a result of a reaction in another dimension of sorts and that there is existance beyond 'ours' as we know it. That would still not explain how that other existance came to exist. :P
    I know. It's one giant rabbit hole. I think it is because of this that theists assume the positions that they do.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Jeremy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank View Post
    Sounds like the universe is a scientist. There is something about that I like.
    Yeah. That's one way of looking at it I guess. The universe is experimenting with itself to figure out.. something. Who knows what though?
    "Can you set me free from this dark inner world? Save me now, last beats in the soul.."

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  9. #29
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    very good question, and the answer is simple: science works because there IS some sort of order to the world, and the human mind is capable of picking up on that order in primitive yet sufficient ways.

    Science works because we are our own Godsthat can exert themselves on the world, and if you're a non atheist you might consider the possibility the God wants us to be Gods. If you doubt the bolded proposition, I would gladly introduce you to the atom bomb and the basic mechanisms of how and why it works the way it does.

  10. #30
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I would gladly introduce you to the atom bomb and the basic mechanisms of how and why it works the way it does.
    U(235)+n -> Kaboom.

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