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  1. #11
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    I think that I may have this confused... To clarify Atheism is denying that anything higher makes things work the way that they do, right? That's how I've had it described to me before. I've also had to described as simply not believing in a god, but that there may be some other thing at work influencing the universe.

    If it's not believing in a god then that makes me an atheist too.

    Aj, this is confusing to me because (according to the former definition I gave) Atheists don't think anything influences the way things work, but how can they deny that anything does? I just simply don't know how one could say that the universe works the way it does "just because".

    I doubt anyone is going to find any answers via science... since you can't identify what makes science work through science.
    Atheism is just the absence of theistic belief. A-theism. So you can have atheists that are just atheists, and you can have atheists who also proactively deny the existence of God(s) on top of just having an absence of belief in them.

    I'm not sure what you mean by "Atheists don't think anything influences the way things work". "Anything", as in, the supernatural?

  2. #12
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I dislike the term 'supernatural'.

    Supernatural is just a term that we use in attempts to understand that which we can not yet scientifically understand.

  3. #13
    Magical BlackCat's Avatar
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    I've come to the conclusion- There is no conclusion to anything. Thank you.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  4. #14
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Oh you're not there yet, first read up on the Chaos Theory.

    You'll be blinking your eyes wondering why you're blinking your eyes.

  5. #15
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I dislike the term 'supernatural'.

    Supernatural is just a term that we use in attempts to understand that which we can not yet scientifically understand.
    I think the label could actually help, because it creates added incentive for science to come forward and debunk it, and say "Nice try, nature might be complex, but it still makes sense."

  6. #16
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    I think the label could actually help, because it creates added incentive for science to come forward and debunk it, and say "Nice try, nature might complex, but it still makes sense."
    Ofcourse, a little incentive never hurts (scientists).

  7. #17
    Senior Member Jeremy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I agree!
    Blackcat, atheism as I see it is not believing in anything that has not yet been scientifically proven. So we create theoretical possibilities, and try to put them to the test. And look for means to trail back along time by putting all of nature's forces (gravitational forces) in one big model, and then start counting backwards. So, an atheist doesn't simply accept anything. But remains skeptical about such theories, until they are proven beyond doubt.

    I have a theory, but I will not blindly believe in my theory. If possible, I will try to prove my theory however, or change it as I see fit upon discovering new insights.
    That's the problem, though, just like Blackcat said. We don't even know how science works - it's just a given. Science relies on perception as much as anything else, including religion. There's no way to validate ANYTHING, because we don't even know if the tools we're using to validate our existence are what really matters!

    If we can't validate what it is that we base all of our scientific experiments with, then how can we immediately assume that all religions are false? It seems to me like atheism is a philosophy that tries so hard to escape from religion that it backfires, and blindly follows "empirical" evidence.

    I do have my own personal beliefs - basically what is called pantheism, but not naturalistic. I think that the universe as a whole is likely to be somewhat sentient, and that the development of life is most likely a way to figure out something. I don't really know what that something is, but to be honest, if individual people can be sentient beings, what keeps us from making the logical leap that the universe, as a whole, could be one as well? And if that is the case, then could it not be that the universe spurred its own development through the creation of life?

    Oh, I'm getting into my philosophical mode. Either way, that's my feelings. Like Blackcat said, I don't think atheism is necessarily wrong, nor do I think Christianity / other religions are wrong either. But I do feel they're extreme, to the point of ignoring anything that disagrees with your own position on how the world works, so I avoid them.
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  8. #18
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    So if you take one apple, and you put it next to another apple, you're saying that there is no way of knowing for sure there are two apples in front of you? We have eyes for that, and touch and taste to prove it!

    Our senses are capable of scientific discoveries that you can't just deny.

    Science is not omniscience, no. But it's also not subjective in the sense you suggest it is.

    Science is everything that we have been able to explain within the parameters of our senses. Religion is nothing more then assuming without proof.

    I'm not anti religion either, in fact, for many people I know religion has helped them in order to live happier, better lives. There's unfortunatly also extremists on the other end of that but that's too far off topic to go into right now. But science is nothing like religion. Science does not stop with theories and assumptions. But aims to test and prove its assumptions, and slowly but surely work its way to more knowledge. Step by step from scratch. Religion starts on the other end. Assuming a theology and being happy with that without questioning it.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Jeremy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    So if you take one apple, and you put it next to another apple, you're saying that there is no way of knowing for sure there are two apples in front of you? We have eyes for that, and touch and taste to prove it!

    Our senses are capable of scientific discoveries that you can't just deny.

    Science is not omniscience, no. But it's also not subjective in the sense you suggest it is.
    Oh, but that's the fallacy! It is objective, but only to US. We can't see the entire picture from where we stand, and that's the problem that scientists often seem to ignore. The basic principles that govern our universe may or may not be unique to our universe, and yet, they often assume that they are completely true regardless. We can't answer the question from within the box, because you can't see the whole box when you're inside it.

    Now, to me, yes, I know that there is gravity. I know that there are 2 apples on the table. But that is only from my limited perspective. I can't apply my perspective, even when humanity agrees that it is an objective fact, to all situations, all of the time. Science often seems to do just that, even if that's not the intention.
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  10. #20
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    So it's not okay to say the two apples on your table are in fact two apples according to science. But it is okay that to say there's a God almighty up in the heavens that governs our every movement? :P

    Scientists at least try to see the big picture, but slwoly unraveling it piece by piece. The only way we have in trying to unravel it. Through trial and error. Religion cuts people off from that quest and (in my opinion) keeps them in the dark, leaving them with assumptions and beliefs that are unchangable.

    I totally agree that we can't naturally assume we know everything. But I do think the best we is to at least give it our best by trying to utilize our senses to the best of our knowledge in puzzling it all together. :P

    I have some philosophies about 'the big picture' that I put forward in another topic btw: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...hilosophy.html

    It explains in pretty good detail how I think about that.

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