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  1. #91
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Haha.

    The irony of debating individual perspective hinged on the inherent improbability of fully comprehending external perspective is a deeply satisfying quandary.
    You assume to much. :P

    It's about a simple mistake, vulnerable to word-play that takes the opinion in another perspective without intention. Berating!

    We're not debating an individual's opinion that can be bridged to a generalisation of many individuals, for the sake of an arguement stating that doing so is a mistake. Instead, we're(I am :P) 'debating' a misunderstanding.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  2. #92
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post


    Where I disagree is that there are atheists who can believe in something, or actively disbelieve. So, it's true that "we", as atheists, cannot state those things (as compared to a common set of theistic beliefs)... but individuals who are atheist can.
    I think this is the closest evaluation to what SW meant (I guess he's in a unique position to adjudicate our fissure...!)

    I wasn't necessarily attacking the veracity of SW's position; more a defense of Jennifer's query. (I actually agree with much of SW has offered thus far.)

  3. #93
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I wasn't necessarily attacking the veracity of SW's position; more a defense of Jennifer's query. (I actually agree with much of SW has offered thus far.)
    I wasn't defending SW's position either - I have a hard time saying that a definition can apply to a group but not the individuals it contains. Oh, right, typology forum. Forgot.

    (Muahah.)

    In reality, I think Jennifer was picking up an inconsistency, while all of the Ti's would leap on either clarifying or questioning it.

    (Dammit! I did it again. Man, this being consistent is hard work.)

  4. #94
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I have a hard time saying that a definition can apply to a group but not the individuals it contains. Oh, right, typology forum. Forgot.

    (Muahah.)

  5. #95
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I still think you all took him way too literal.

    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #96
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Believers are warm, fluffy and cuddly with big wide open eyes and the trust of a child.
    That's what Rev. Jim Jones said to his victims before they all died.

  7. #97
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    First:


    Later:


    Just a small attempt at clarity so I can follow you: Can you speak for all these other atheists, or do you really only know your own thoughts on the matter? Or is the latter definition theoretically sound but unrealistic in the practical sense?

    (It sounds like you're saying you can only ever speak for yourself, but you're still speaking for others.)
    If it sounds better to you, just substitute "I and atheists who identify with me" for "we."

    (btw, I don't find your comments insulting at all, for whoever said that.)


    And...does anyone have a response to the actual content of my post, pronoun formatting aside?
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #98
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaguar View Post
    That's what Rev. Jim Jones said to his victims before they all died.
    "Trust me", said Jim, "Trust me and drink the cool-aid".

    And, "Trust me", says the Koran, "Trust me and martyr yourself in Jihad and Allah will reward you with 72 virgins".

    But if you can't trust Jim. And you can't trust the Koran. At least trust Mrs Briggs and her daughter, Mrs Myers.

  9. #99
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    I haven't finished reading this thread -- though from flipping through the pages I think I should -- so this post is more with the OP in mind.

    The definition of atheism that works for me starts with what I think was its original definition. I believe atheism was a word Christians used for defining those who did not believe in the existence of Jesus or God or, well, basically the Trinity. Christianity's god is like a person -- he has a personality, feelings, thinks in a similar way (albeit on a much higher level), desires a personal relationship with people (through prayer, etc.), etc. As a result, I think these days, atheism means, in order of "technical accuracy" (first is most accurate), not believing in the Trinity, not believing in any human-like god, and finally, not believing in a prominent, all-pervasive, single, non-personified entity which created and operates everything. With the last one, a person essentially believes only in that which has been explained by science and does not use any sort of holistic belief to offer an explanation for that which science has not explained. He/She generates theories for each specific phenomenon, based on existing scientific explanations.

    I created this definition based on my experiences with people of varying *religiousity* [quick question: why are *s often used instead of "s in people's posts?]. Most everyone seems to consider anyone who doesn't believe in a personified god to be an atheist, but opinions differ regarding a non-personified entity. Some have told me this "entity" I speak of still sounds godly enough (I sometimes describe it as an "intelligence") for me to be not really a total atheist, whereas for others, if I don't fully personify the entity, it loses its god status and I am therefore a full blown atheist.

    Any thoughts/criticisms on this definition?

    Regarding what I "believe", as I've indicated, I like the idea of all pervading, natural "intelligence" which is the reason why all of reality behaves the way it does. Currently, to fill the slot of the "what started it all" question, I use an uncannily Tao-like explanation. Basically, in Tao terms, matter is the Void's(absolute nothingness) compliment and essentially that all "things" (ie. matter) did come from nothing. I like this explanation because, it confounds and neutralizes logical analysis so elegantly. I could expand on all of this, but I'm pretty drained (I edit A LOT) and I don't even know anymore if this post is suitable for this thread. So for now, goodnight. I'm out.

  10. #100
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    How ridiculous.

    We have all these thoughtful, committed atheists here but not one MBTI atheist.

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