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  1. #21
    Systematic chaos Cenomite's Avatar
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    I'll need to read up on this in the morning. Sleep time!
    The probability that I was procrastinating when I was typing this post:

    P(have big assignment due) = 0.6
    P(posting on TypoC) = 0.2
    P(having big assignment due | posting on TypoC) = 0.7

    P(posting on TypoC | having big assignment due) = .......


    Eh, I'll finish it later.

  2. #22
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    I would be glad to give ear to your hypotheses, although they'll only be as right as any old hypothesis.
    Indeed, but they may trigger some thoughts that will let you identify for yourself the cause.

    Mmk, so I may be projecting here, but anyway, whatever:
    Perhaps it's because you think of it as "cheating" in a way.
    Maybe because you simply wouldn't be able to trust that it would work and continue working.
    Maybe because you wouldn't want to leave people, and consequently, they become unhappy (this is one of my main reservations about the machine).
    Perhaps because of a religion.
    Possibly because you would want to help others, and hooking yourself up to the machine would preclude that.
    Perhaps because of a sense of duty you have to some others or some cause.
    etc.

    You can probably see my logic here now.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
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  3. #23
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Okay, here are my responses.

    -I don't think of it as cheating. I think of it as horribly shallow and meaningless. I would hate to throw away my life and all the things I live for in favor of uber-happiness.

    -Even if I could trust the machine to keep working (and I was assuming I could), it would make no difference.

    -I don't really have anyone to leave behind in the first place. I have no friends.

    -I'm not religious.

    -I don't have anyone I want to help, really, since I have no friends. That isn't to say I never encounter people I want to help, just that as I sit here typing, no one springs to mind.

    -Yes, I have a sense of duty to my own higher values. That's exactly what I'm getting at when I say that happiness in itself doesn't necessarily win out over other considerations.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  4. #24
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    -Yes, I have a sense of duty to my own higher values. That's exactly what I'm getting at when I say that happiness in itself doesn't necessarily win out over other considerations.
    So, you wouldn't do it because that would violate your values. Why do you not wish to violate your values? Presumably because you would feel horrible if you did?

    Though logically one could conclude that the temporary feeling of having betrayed your values would be overridden by the machine, humans aren't logical creatures. So you are still choosing happiness, even if logically your choice isn't the most efficient way of achieving that.

    imo
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
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  5. #25
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    So, you wouldn't do it because that would violate your values. Why do you not wish to violate your values? Presumably because you would feel horrible if you did?

    Though logically one could conclude that the temporary feeling of having betrayed your values would be overridden by the machine, humans aren't logical creatures. So you are still choosing happiness, even if logically your choice isn't the most efficient way of achieving that.

    imo
    Right, I'm choosing happiness, but a lesser happiness. That's my whole point, Costrin.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  6. #26
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    Right, I'm choosing happiness, but a lesser happiness. That's my whole point, Costrin.
    Mmk. Then we have no disagreements then, I presume? Simply a misunderstanding.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
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  7. #27
    Senior Member Azseroffs's Avatar
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    I have actually given this some thorough thought.
    Many of my friends are drug users and it actually open up this whole philosophy that you are talking about.

    Me and my friends share the idea that the goal in life is the greatest possible happiness. We used drugs because it made us happy. Eventually, I grew tired of it and when I tried to explain that I was over it they would argue "what is the problem? All there is to life is happiness, and here it is." I found this logic extremely hard to counter as it was inherently true.

    This is the conclusion I came to.
    I don't want to use drugs because it hinders my ability to think, and my ability to think is one of my highest regarded abilities. In other words, I value my mind and value my ability to possibly do greater good for mankind. My desire to do something constructive with my life gives me an inner sense of happiness that goes deeper than that happiness.

    I realize it is somewhat different from a "happiness machine," but a happiness machine would be just as artificial, and if I had to choose, I would choose not to because I feel like I will gain more happiness from not choosing it even if that may be untrue.

    Now if I didn't have the opportunity to choose, and I had been hooked up against my will... chances are that I would not choose to remove it. There is no reason for someone to choose to leave a feeling of complete happiness. The only reason why they would choose to leave it so that they could do something that follows their values, but values are just a way of inducing happiness, so a feeling of complete happiness would be like having a feeling of completing or following your values.

    For the argument of "do we live for happiness or for values?" just think of a time when you completed something that was important to you or a time when you did "the right thing." How did you feel? Happy. So, why do we pursue our values? for happiness.
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  8. #28
    Senior Member Azseroffs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    Right, I'm choosing happiness, but a lesser happiness. That's my whole point, Costrin.
    You are choosing what you feel will be the greater happiness. Humans are not logical to the core.

    Why do people cheat? I doubt their values support it. If they think about it, it can only create unhappiness in the long run, even if they do get away with it. They do it because they feel like it will make them happy at the time.
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  9. #29
    AKA Nunki Polaris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azseroffs View Post
    You are choosing what you feel will be the greater happiness.
    No, I'm really not. My life is not an easy one. I deal with many troubles that most people could never dream of. But I want those troubles. Those troubles are where I find meaning.
    [ Ni > Ti > Fe > Fi > Ne > Te > Si > Se ][ 4w5 sp/sx ][ RLOAI ][ IEI-Ni ]

  10. #30
    Senior Member Azseroffs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nunki View Post
    No, I'm really not. My life is not an easy one. I deal with many troubles that most people could never dream of. But I want those troubles. Those troubles are where I find meaning.
    why do you need to find meaning?
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