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  1. #81
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    I won't bother to contest the point. It's completely true that I don't much care for classic literature of any sort - never have - I'd much rather read something lighter, or non-fiction.
    That's fine. All I'm doing is pointing out that, in acting on such preferences, you are deliberately choosing cultural illiteracy... in other words, ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Frankly, for me, reading the Bible just isn't worth it (I've tried - briefly, maybe twice - and I'll admit my nonreligious leanings are strong enough to have that aspect of it alone be a major turnoff). Even if a large percentage of classical Western literature assumes a knowledge of it - most of that's stuff that I don't enjoy anyway, and even if I can read something and say "well, this is very well written - but *yawn*" (my usual response to "classic" literature), it's not something that really makes me want to spend time on it - there are other things I'd enjoy more. Most (if not all) "new" stories are old stories in new wrappers - and have been even before and including the Bible - things that appealed to people thousands of years ago still appeal now - when presented in a context that you can appreciate. For me, the Bible isn't that context, and I've never felt much connection to "culture" anyway.
    What it's really about is an ongoing conversation being passed down through generations. People in the past have had wise and perceptive things to say about things that will one day be important to you. In passing up a primary cultural reference, you are turning a deaf ear to them.

    Which is fine, if that's what you want to do. It's your choice, your call.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    "Educated" is a pretty meaningless generic term nowadays, I think.
    You hold this view because post-moderns have lost the concept of "liberal education," in which the values of a culture are taught. You may not see the meaning of the term "educated," but it by no means follows that the term is meaningless.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    There's SO much out there to know that none of us can really handle any reasonably large chunk of it. We can be educated in a topic, or even a lot of topics - but why should I choose to be educated in the Bible, for instance, instead of nuclear physics, or genetics, or geography, or geology, or economics?
    Again this is an effect of the post-modern worldview, in which bodies of information are fragmented and pigeonholed, not bearing any relationship to one another, or relative value.

    I'll put it as succinctly as I can, assuming you're still reading and haven't quit in disgust: Education is the process by which you learn how to decide what's important.

    Please note that I didn't say that education is how you learn what's important. It's not a matter of what to think, but how to think... how to weigh relative merit of competing ideas, how to go about setting priorities in your life, how to make informed choices about what you believe about all the big philosophical questions.

    At the root of it, you may discover a reason to live. (I know... to a post-modern, that very statement is absurd... it's like whistling about architecture... but still, there it is.) If that isn't important to you, well, I can't really help you.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    lol. you guys.
    Way to address my points.
    My point is you have no idea who God is, objectively, whatsoever.
    (But you talk as if you do --that's the discrepancy.)

    It's all based on assumption, based on what you accept as authoritative.
    There is nothing that can be known with certainty.

    It doesn't matter, you know; you can believe what you want.
    It's a free country.

    PS. Hi Obey!!!
    The point is everyone knows God objectively and authoritatively:

    Rom 1:18-23
    The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
    NIV

    Men used to worship idols of stone images. Now they worship other things in the place of God, mostly man.

    Everyone knows God objectively and authoritatively. They just suppress the truth by their wickedness. Sight is restored when you bend the knee and accept Jesus sacrifice on the cross as an atonement for your sins. Then you know what you have hidden from yourself for so long. And then the Son shows you more of the Father.

    I don't say this to argue any "POINT" in a game with you, Jennifer.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  3. #83
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post

    As Jürgen Habermas(another Marxist) remarked:
    1) Habermas is not Marxist. He never was. This is a way to tell us you've never read his books.

    2) You should have understood this quote in its whole context. But I'm not surprised you didn't. Habermas is a burning atheist, and a lot of his discussions with Ratzinger have been distorted on purpose, to make him say the opposite of what he really meant.
    Let's say that this dear Jürgend was quite upset against Christians, as I've seen him during conferences complaining against these perverse manipulations.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  4. #84
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    The point is everyone knows God objectively and authoritatively:

    Rom 1:18-23
    The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
    NIV

    Men used to worship idols of stone images. Now they worship other things in the place of God, mostly man.

    Everyone knows God objectively and authoritatively. They just suppress the truth by their wickedness. Sight is restored when you bend the knee and accept Jesus sacrifice on the cross as an atonement for your sins. Then you know what you have hidden from yourself for so long. And then the Son shows you more of the Father.

    I don't say this to argue any "POINT" in a game with you, Jennifer.
    Thank you for clarifying the basis for your rationality, which is really the only point I was making in this conversation. (You're arguing not from an evidential rationale but from an assumption of authority.) You assume the words are correct, because you've chosen to believe they are... not because you actually can know or show they are. Your claim is: "Someone said this was true."

    Which is really what this is about: When the culture shifts and no longer assumes the same authorities are authoritative, the only common ground left is evidential conclusions -- ideas derived from common shared observable experience. This is why the conservative viewpoint is finding itself disenfranchised, because younger generations do not see evidence for the belief structure any longer, since basically it was always an assumption to start with. To have a voice in the continually changing culture, you have to be able to tie your beliefs to a pool of common experiences through which others can connect with you, not merely say, "Someone said this was true." You can do that, but the odds aren't great people will accept your advice.

    So how has it all been working for you?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #85
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So how has it all been working for you?
    It all works well because it is not up to me. The Holy Spirit calls those who are the elect and draws them irresistibly to God. I have only the responsibility to tell and make disciples. I love the work!

    As for the disenfranchisement issue, I can only quote something I read this morning:

    "No simple explanation can be given for what has been taking place, and it is essential to maintain a historical perspective. In biblical times and across the centuries there have been other periods of similar barrenness that God has mercifully interrupted with reformation and revival. Those wise in their own eyes, past and present, have regularly belittled the "credulity" of Christians and declared the gospel to be unworthy of serious consideration, but the desert sands of infidelity are littered with the whitened bones of foolish people who said to themselves and to others, "There is no God." --John R. De Witt "Judgment and Mercy," Table Talk from Ligonier Ministries February 2009, p. 70.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  6. #86
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Just wanted to say I'm not trying to be antagonistic to you as a person, I'm just challenging the idea... I realized after the last exchange it might sound differently. So I did want to clarify. It's kind of difficult to separate, I know, since we are discussing ideas that are also manifest within both of us as people.

    Well, I grew up in the church, held your position for years, and finally had to move out of that mindset because it didn't seem to mesh with where I was healthiest as a human being. That's pretty much the bottom line: The stance you describe doesn't seem to fit with the experience of living nor how people become most healthy (self-sacrificial and loving). I've got to go with positive growth ("A good tree bears good fruit, a bad tree cannot bear good fruit") when I see it. I have seen much destruction occur from the mindset you are promoting and NOT a lot of positive good, and this is why the culture is shifting; legitimate needs within people will drive them to abandon irrelevant or destructive philosophies. I spent my whole life within the evangelical movement and watched it devour and destroy itself from within, which grieved me; and finally I had to accept that it was the mindset itself that prevented an understanding and engagement of the culture.

    Did you note how you consistently quote other people anytime I push on your answers? You definitely like to appeal to authority. That can sometimes be beneficial, but I have no idea how you incorporate new input into your thinking. I can't do that; I have to be open to new ideas and weigh them on their own merits.

    As far as your quote, I do not identify with it at all.

    Labeling dissenters and critics of a particular form of Christian theology as fools, infidels, and whatever else might enable someone to justify a refusal to engage the active work of the Spirit in people's lives and how cultures legitimately change over time and God can manifest himself... but to me that is not a position of intellectual or spiritual integrity that I could endorse for myself.

    Nor do I think it really helps those who need to be awakened spiritually.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #87
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    Honestly?
    Frickin intuitives.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  8. #88
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    1) Habermas is not Marxist. He never was. This is a way to tell us you've never read his books.
    Not yet no, but I'm working my way towards The Structural Transformation of the Public Sphere. I have read secondary sources about him and his views that have described him as either a Marxist or Post-Marxist. Even if he was a Marxist, he certainly is not an orthodox one and has critiqued many of Marx's original assertions.

    Personally I'm more familiar with Zizek's work, could be my Slavic sympathies at work.

    2) You should have understood this quote in its whole context. But I'm not surprised you didn't.
    As usual my dear Blackmail, your bark is worse than your bite. If nitpicking me on questions of Habermas is all you can do, well then you're engaging in the fine art of missing the point.

    So I'm mistaken in describing Habermas as a "Marxist". Ok one point for you, happy now?

    Habermas is a burning atheist, and a lot of his discussions with Ratzinger have been distorted on purpose, to make him say the opposite of what he really meant.
    I never said Habermas was a Christian, nor is Zizek for that matter(although I heard Zizek describes himself as an "atheist Calvinist"). I actually discussed this elsewhere about how both seem largely interested in the political implications of Christianity rather than the actual theology itself.

    So despite being non-believers, both seem to agree that religion has something important to say in the conversation.

  9. #89
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    The point is everyone knows God objectively and authoritatively:

    Rom 1:18-23
    The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

    21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
    NIV

    Men used to worship idols of stone images. Now they worship other things in the place of God, mostly man.

    Everyone knows God objectively and authoritatively. They just suppress the truth by their wickedness. Sight is restored when you bend the knee and accept Jesus sacrifice on the cross as an atonement for your sins. Then you know what you have hidden from yourself for so long. And then the Son shows you more of the Father.

    I don't say this to argue any "POINT" in a game with you, Jennifer.
    What about all other religions who claim a similar "authority" for their beliefs... Hinduism, Islam, Ahura-Mazda (might have spelled that wrong!) and so on. Are they all also "right" because everyone knows their own God(s) objectively and authoratitively?

  10. #90
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    You have consigned yourself to qualitative ignorance of nine-tenths of the literature of Western civilization up to the 19th century.

    Yes, it's your right to do so... but make no mistake, it's what you're doing.
    Education is the process by which you learn how to decide what's important.

    Please note that I didn't say that education is how you learn what's important. It's not a matter of what to think, but how to think... how to weigh relative merit of competing ideas, how to go about setting priorities in your life, how to make informed choices about what you believe about all the big philosophical questions.

    At the root of it, you may discover a reason to live. (I know... to a post-modern, that very statement is absurd... it's like whistling about architecture... but still, there it is.) If that isn't important to you, well, I can't really help you.
    Oberon, ITA with everything you've posted in this thread. Which means I don't have to do any work to post my own thoughts, since they follow yours so closely. I'd kiss you, but that avatar gives me the heebie jeebies.

    Seriously, though, great posts.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

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