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  1. #51
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    The bottom line to me has always been, "Is it true?" The opening post complaining about "what has been lost" means little to me, if what was lost was never true to begin with. A mistake perpetuated for centuries, even if it happened to catalyze some good things, is still a mistake and catalyzed a bunch of wrong things as well.
    The importance of knowledge is not always proportional to its "truth"; for instance, I think some basic knowledge of Marxism is absolutely essential for someone to understand modern history (and society in general), despite my conviction that the theoretical paradigm highly exaggerates one aspect of complicated reality and has done far more harm than good overall. I'm also not very fond of orthodox Islam, but attempting to understand world history or modern events without basic knowledge of it is likewise impossible. On a more advanced level, knowing the history of ideas and society is important in understanding the formation, advancement, and retention of knowledge in general.

  2. #52
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The importance of knowledge is not always proportional to its "truth"; for instance, I think some basic knowledge of Marxism is absolutely essential for someone to understand modern history (and society in general), despite my conviction that the theoretical paradigm highly exaggerates one aspect of complicated reality and has done far more harm than good overall. I'm also not very fond of orthodox Islam, but attempting to understand world history or modern events without basic knowledge of it is likewise impossible. On a more advanced level, knowing the history of ideas and society is important in understanding the formation, advancement, and retention of knowledge in general.
    Well, I did not mean to say I don't believe in education to help you "frame" the information you DO have. It's always good to understand the gist of something, regardless of whether you agree with it or not. i actually think general Bible knowledge should be taught... along with Islam and other mainstream religions, to help people integrate better into a multi-cultural society and actually understand their own backgrounds in context of something bigger.

    I'm coming from a conservative evangelical background where I've had to listen to lots of illogical crap being spouted off as "objective truth" without any firm evidence of the sort, it's all really just personal belief given a facade of legitimacy; and so to me, in regards that that particular exchange, the bottom line is, "Is it TRUE?" Not, "Do you think it's good?"
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  3. #53
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Jennifer, when you serve a Sovereign God whose rules of faith and obedience (as revealed in His Word) are immutable, it is very hard to "adjust to the needs of a shifting culture" which is "shifting" into a more and more sinful direction. I'd rather be damned by my culture than by my God. If that "disenfranchises" those of us who believe as I do then we must as needs be thought "unyielding, unreasonable and uable to adjust." I think it is just being thought of by God as a reasonable and true Christian. The Bible continues to be the number one best seller in the world because it is relevant to the day.
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  4. #54
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Jennifer, when you serve a Sovereign God whose rules of faith and obedience (as revealed in His Word) are immutable, it is very hard to "adjust to the needs of a shifting culture" which is "shifting" into a more and more sinful direction. I'd rather be damned by my culture than by my God. If that "disenfranchises" those of us who believe as I do then we must as needs be thought "unyielding, unreasonable and uable to adjust." I think it is just being thought of by God as a reasonable and true Christian. The Bible continues to be the number one best seller in the world because it is relevant to the day.
    The bible is still the number one best seller? Are you sure? Are you talking about ongoing sales?

  5. #55
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    so to me, in regards that that particular exchange, the bottom line is, "Is it TRUE?" Not, "Do you think it's good?"
    Gotcha. I'm somewhat in the middle there, because much as I'm compelled to seek "truth," I'm also pretty convinced that objectively establishing truth is impossible, and IF in fact truth=nihilism, then whether or not something is "good" (in the utilitarian sense) is really all the truth that matters (either way, (societal) knowledge of everything, good and bad, is very important). I also often worry that Western culture has too thoroughly obliterated the "sacred canopy" without having anything to replace its most essential utilitarian elements, though I am very glad that religious dogmas can no longer block the individual pursuit of happiness without strong, reason-based opposition.

  6. #56
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Gotcha. I'm somewhat in the middle there, because much as I'm compelled to seek "truth," I'm also pretty convinced that objectively establishing truth is impossible, and IF in fact truth=nihilism, then whether or not something is "good" (in the utilitarian sense) is really all the truth that matters (either way, (societal) knowledge of everything, good and bad, is very important). I also often worry that Western culture has too thoroughly obliterated the "sacred canopy" without having anything to replace its most essential utilitarian elements, though I am very glad that religious dogmas can no longer block the individual pursuit of happiness without strong, reason-based opposition.
    If it is impossible to objectively establish the truth, then what is the point of opposing dogma with reason-based opposition?

    Why not physical opposition?

    I ask because reason is usually seen as objective, whereas dogma (usually) isn't, and this why reason based opposition is a good thing.

    ?

  7. #57
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    The bible is still the number one best seller? Are you sure? Are you talking about ongoing sales?
    Just checking one source, ALLBOOKSTORES.COM there are 11,680 versions of the Bible listed under Bible, General. This doesn't include all the entries for each individual Bible Version, Bible Story Books, Study Bibles, Bibles in other languages... One "source" on the net claimed 100,000,000 sold per year--but that cannot be verified. (And I think that is way low.) Of course, Geoff, there is no way to track all these versions of the Bible and get a cumulative ongoing sales figure. WikiAnswers.com does not have an answer to the question "How many Bibles are sold in the world?" for this reason. You are asking for the impossible. I think any reasonable person would say that the Bible is still the number one best seller, hands down, upon looking at the evidence. More and new versions are published every year, just look for yourself.
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  8. #58
    Senior Member Jeremy's Avatar
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    Sales figures are one thing though (and we don't even have those). How many bibles are purchased and then never read? To be honest, in today's world, I'd say the number is quite high. People barely take time for things that they actually want to read, let alone things that they're told they must read if they wish to escape eternal damnation. It's not an accurate barometer.

    I should probably stop there, but to be honest, I do agree with the idea that a basic knowledge of the Bible helps to understand the English literary canon more than anything else - so much of the literature is based on, either through inspiration or in defiance of, the bible. My lack of knowledge about much of the bible often hurts me in my British literature classes - I don't really understand where many of the ideas in the text are coming from, and these must be explained by someone else.

    On the other hand, I have no problem understanding most of the modern / present day literature that I have read, because the bible really is no longer the key center of the conversation. Indeed, while the bible may be necessary to understand earlier texts, modern day texts are more reality and "truth" based - getting a message out and appealing to the sensibilities of people. That's probably one reason that my favorite classes in literature have been about African American literature - though often rooted in faith, there is no requirement to know the fables in the bible in order to understand the text. The text can stand on its own as a modern cultural invention.
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  9. #59
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Just checking one source, ALLBOOKSTORES.COM there are 11,680 versions of the Bible listed under Bible, General. This doesn't include all the entries for each individual Bible Version, Bible Story Books, Study Bibles, Bibles in other languages... One "source" on the net claimed 100,000,000 sold per year--but that cannot be verified. (And I think that is way low.) Of course, Geoff, there is no way to track all these versions of the Bible and get a cumulative ongoing sales figure. WikiAnswers.com does not have an answer to the question "How many Bibles are sold in the world?" for this reason. You are asking for the impossible. I think any reasonable person would say that the Bible is still the number one best seller, hands down, upon looking at the evidence. More and new versions are published every year, just look for yourself.
    Any reasonable man can look at the best seller lists, right now, and see no bible version in the top 100 even....?

    Edit : the best selling "religion" book is one that talks about contradictions in the bible (no 34)
    the best selling version of the bible is currently no 182

    (source, best selling books currently on amazon.com)

    So, I'm struggling to get it as being the ongoing best selling book in the world, hands down? It doesnt sell as many books as, say, that rather horrid creation the da vinci code.

  10. #60
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    If it is impossible to objectively establish the truth, then what is the point of opposing dogma with reason-based opposition?

    Why not physical opposition?

    I ask because reason is usually seen as objective, whereas dogma (usually) isn't, and this why reason based opposition is a good thing.

    ?
    It is much easier to establish that something is wrong (through both reason and empiricism), or at least highly uncertain, than to establish that something is true. Besides, just because something can't be established as true (empiricism is limited and dependent on the senses, and logic can only establish the consistency of a theoretical framework based on specific assumptions), that dosn't mean certain claims cannot be backed up by more objective evidence than others.

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