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  1. #101
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    Well, the same is true of the Bible and Western literature. No, scratch that... it's bigger than just literature. It's Western culture, Western civilization. The art, the architecture, the music, the politics, the way the common people in Prague or Seattle or London think. Try to understand all those things without a nodding acquaintance with the Bible, and you're as much as trying to study biology while avoiding Darwin.
    I agree with Oberon completely. Again. I just don't consider it possible to be educated (and by 'educated' I don't means # of degrees on the wall) without knowledge of the bible. Just not possible, imo.

    This is such an important point:

    my opinion of the text has no bearing on its essentiality to a thorough understanding of Hindu culture
    Personal opinions of the text are not. relevant.

    Is there any serious thinker who denies that knowledge of the bible is important? (there might be, but I haven't come across any)
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

    "please give concise answers in plain English" - request from Provoker

  2. #102
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post

    Is there any serious thinker who denies that knowledge of the bible is important? (there might be, but I haven't come across any)
    Define "thinkers"?

    If you mean most contemporary epistemologists, scientists, or sociologists, anybody that produces today Art, Intelligence or Knowledge, then the answer is YES: the knowledge of the bible is almost entirely irrelevant, and you won't be judged if you don't give a damn!

    I'm sorry, but you don't need the bible to understand how Notre-Dame has been built, and to appreciate its beauty (The study of statics and stone building during medieval times might be far more handy). Besides, the ones who built it were illiterates most of the time.

    You shouldn't confuse the text with separate non-religious, technical traditions.

    And even if you study religious societies of the past, what is relevant should be the measurable effects of the belief system and NOT the book on which this religion pretends to be based. So again, in theory, you can skip the Bible.
    You don't need to read to Quran to see what's happening within some muslim societies, to count and list the effects this religion has on women or on daily law. But on the other hand, it can help to understand where the problem lies.

    What really matters, is the REAL world, not the cheap mystic inside. And if a new generation of people feels less concerned about this "cheap mystic", well, who are we to judge them!? I'd say the phenomena was rather predictable, and is probably irreversible.
    Last edited by Blackmail!; 04-15-2009 at 01:50 PM.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  3. #103
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    What really matters, is the REAL world, not the cheap mystic inside.
    Oh, now you're just being stubborn. You know very well that there's no separating the "REAL WORLD" from our perception of it. And that perception is without exception colored by our personal frame of reference. If that personal frame of reference contains a "cheap mystic inside," then the cheap mystic inside is relevant to the discussion.

  4. #104
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Oh, now you're just being stubborn. You know very well that there's no separating the "REAL WORLD" from our perception of it. And that perception is without exception colored by our personal frame of reference. If that personal frame of reference contains a "cheap mystic inside," then the cheap mystic inside is relevant to the discussion.
    It's far more complex than that.

    You don't need to understand the personal frame of reference of others to give an intrasubjective value of their works. Hence the "cheap mystic inside" is really irrelevant as long as it is considered solely for its metaphysical content. It does matter only when it has a measurable effect perceived by many, and this effect is by definition itself, independent of an individual frame of reference (even if it is an aggregate of subjective percepts or affects). You have to separate the two, there's no other way.

    Should I remind you some basic principles of modern phenomenology? How does Husserl suggest we can suspend our own judgment?
    And have you read Wittgenstein, for instance?
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  5. #105
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    Should I remind you some basic principles of modern phenomenology?

    Do you really believe that you can fully understand why Notre-Dame was built without knowing about the typical believer's way of looking at the world?

    Does it not occur to you that, absent that worldview, Notre-Dame would never have been built?

  6. #106
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Oh, absolutely!
    Because Kelric is deliberately choosing ignorance.

    ...

    Blackz, I respect your point of view on the matter far more than I respect Kelric's.
    I know - I've said my bit... but this is at the heart of my problem with this viewpoint. To equate someone having preferences to learn from sources not including a single book that *you* (and granted, many others) find important to general willful ignorance is absurd.

    The world, universe, whatever, is a big place, and our body of knowledge is becoming larger all the time. In terms of either scholarship or enjoyment, the Bible just doesn't hold a place of high importance to me in light of what else is out there, and I'm not religious at all, so it has no appeal on that ground either. I'm fine knowing that it's very important to a lot of people, and that it influenced many things... but my interests simply lie elsewhere. Lack of interest in one (or a small number) of particular topics does not make one ignorant in general. Or else I fear we're *all* guilty of ignorance.

    Oberon, it's pretty evident that we care about very different things, but I'd never accuse you to be deliberately choosing ignorance (in general) for not sharing my priorities. Frankly, that's what you seem to be doing here.

    Anyway, it's late, I'm tired, and I need to get some sleep. 'Night all.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  7. #107
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post

    Does it not occur to you that, absent that worldview, Notre-Dame would never have been built?
    That's NOT relevant.


    As a matter of fact, as an architect, I can tell you that being knowledgeable with stone structures and statics can be far more useful to understand this building, and the choices its designers made and, eventually, why.

    Unless you're a tourist, and you enjoy stories and mythos.

    An engineer should be far more qualified than the average Bible reader. An engineer will be able to appreciate far more the real genius, the real beauty behind this monument. You know, these designers did only what they were told to do. But the way they interpreted the will of the clergy has nothing to do with the clergy itself.
    Gothic style has nothing to do with the Bible. And the Bible contains nothing about how Cathedrals should be erected.

    Their designs survived the religion they were supposed to serve.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  8. #108
    Oberon
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    Gentlemen... I see that further input from me on this topic is useless to all of us, and likely counterproductive. Thank you for your time, and I'll see you 'round the boards.

  9. #109
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Oberon, it's pretty evident that we care about very different things, but I'd never accuse you to be deliberately choosing ignorance (in general) for not sharing my priorities. Frankly, that's what you seem to be doing here.
    Exactly.

    Kelric is a full grown-up adult. And he's far from being amongst the less cultured or less curious here, on typology-c. So I think that only he and he himself should have the possibility to judge what really interests him.

    Besides, I think his testimony is quite accurate (about the feeling many contemporary people have about the bible), and that we should not judge him because he shared it with us.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

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  10. #110
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Just wanted to say I'm not trying to be antagonistic to you as a person, I'm just challenging the idea... I realized after the last exchange it might sound differently. So I did want to clarify. It's kind of difficult to separate, I know, since we are discussing ideas that are also manifest within both of us as people.
    I never felt any antagonism from you. I felt you were giving me advice. I suppose you thought so because of the quote, but it was just a general exposition on the Christian experience today as it has been in former eras.

    Well, I grew up in the church, held your position for years, and finally had to move out of that mindset because it didn't seem to mesh with where I was healthiest as a human being. That's pretty much the bottom line: The stance you describe doesn't seem to fit with the experience of living nor how people become most healthy (self-sacrificial and loving). I've got to go with positive growth ("A good tree bears good fruit, a bad tree cannot bear good fruit") when I see it. I have seen much destruction occur from the mindset you are promoting and NOT a lot of positive good, and this is why the culture is shifting; legitimate needs within people will drive them to abandon irrelevant or destructive philosophies. I spent my whole life within the evangelical movement and watched it devour and destroy itself from within, which grieved me; and finally I had to accept that it was the mindset itself that prevented an understanding and engagement of the culture.
    How you experienced your church experience is not how I experience mine, nor are they the same experience. I don't believe being a Christian is to be in a irrelevant or destructive philosophy. I don't find it "devouring and destroying" itself from within. You must be talking about something other than the holy catholic church (do not confuse with the Roman Catholic Church.) There will always be trouble from apostate churches and churchgoers, but you have to engage with true believers who are in many different churches in order to find that good fruit and self-sacrificial love and health you talk about. I've found it.

    As for being in tune with this culture, I'm afraid Christians will never be--

    John 15:19-20
    If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.

    If this culture is satisfied with us Christians, then we are doing it wrong!

    Did you note how you consistently quote other people anytime I push on your answers? You definitely like to appeal to authority. That can sometimes be beneficial, but I have no idea how you incorporate new input into your thinking. I can't do that; I have to be open to new ideas and weigh them on their own merits.
    I quote the Bible because it is the ultimate authority. I quote others because I admire how they say things better than I could have said it myself. I am a librarian and I read widely and have a vast number of quotes at my disposal. It doesn't mean that I do not think.

    As far as your quote, I do not identify with it at all.
    I'm sorry you didn't get it. I thought it was right on target except that I doubt that you are an atheist.

    Labeling dissenters and critics of a particular form of Christian theology as fools, infidels, and whatever else might enable someone to justify a refusal to engage the active work of the Spirit in people's lives and how cultures legitimately change over time and God can manifest himself... but to me that is not a position of intellectual or spiritual integrity that I could endorse for myself.

    Nor do I think it really helps those who need to be awakened spiritually.
    I think you'll find that comes from a passage of scripture in Psalms 14:1 and again in 53:1 that "the fool says in his heart that there is no God." So it wasn't the quoted that was saying that the dissenters and criticts (read atheists) were fools and by quoting it, me, but God was saying it and we were agreeing with Him. That is by definition a position of intellectual and spiritual integrity and making His word known does help those who need to be awakened spiritually. So we disagree again. (I do however see the point in not calling an individual a fool or specific individuals fools, I would never want to do that, that would be a violation of love.)

    I've answered you point by point. I hope this appeases you. I don't intend to keep doing it.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

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