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  1. #41
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Would most people here disagree that there is an objective reality even though we experience it subjectively?
    No. Only in the movies.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon_(film)

  2. #42
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    C'mon, science is based on reality not perception.

    We perceive that the Sun goes round the Earth, but the reality is that the Earth goes round the Sun.

    We perceive that our fate is written in the stars in astrology, while astronomy show us the reality that astrology is nonsense.

    We perceive that alchemy could turn lead into gold, but the reality is that even chemisty can't turn lead into gold.

    We perceive that MBTI is a personality test, but the reality is that MBTI has no more truth value than astrology.

    So the interesting question arises - why do we want to deceive ourselves?

    And the answer might be - it is left over from childhood.

    All children go through a narcissistic phase where they need to be loved unconditionally, and if they are not love unconditionally at this time, they carry the longing over into adulthood.

    So they believe in everything from astrology to MBTI to an Imaginary Friend.

    Unfortunately reality contradicts their belief at every point so naturally they say, "The problem is not in me but in reality - if reality won't conform to my longing, so much the worse for reality".

    So we delude ourselves into thinking that perception is reality.

    But the reality is that it is no more than whistling in the dark for the unconditional love that was denied us as young children.

  3. #43
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Correct Victor,

    But the reality we mention in this thread, the absolute reality. The big picture. No human has the capacity to fully understand. All we know is bits and pieces. Reality in this thread, is more about that absolute reality, then it is about singular facts.

    Not about 1+1, not about up and down. But about the reality of all things subjective.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    Correct Victor,

    But the reality we mention in this thread, the absolute reality. The big picture. No human has the capacity to fully understand. All we know is bits and pieces. Reality in this thread, is more about that absolute reality, then it is about singular facts.

    Not about 1+1, not about up and down. But about the reality of all things subjective.
    Absolute reality is the kind of reality you are having when you are not having any reality.

    Absolute reality is an ersatz reality - it is no more real than ersatz coffee is real coffee.

    'Absolute reality', is based on a logical fallacy, called, "The no true Scotsman fallacy".

  5. #45
    Senior Member mlittrell's Avatar
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    edit: Jen, I believe his point was to show the levels of perspective.
    that was my point lol. i was talking metaphorically. if you want i could use variables instead of clouds giving each other prostate exams
    "Honest differences are often a healthy sign of progress. "

    "You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty."

    "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

    Mahatma Gandhi

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  6. #46
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    Our goal is to understand the objective world through perception. This is why we will never fully understand it because we can only understand what we percieve and its not possible to percieve everything. We know what a cloud is, but can never fully encompass how a certain cloud can affect our world objectively. We interact objectively based on our perception. Because we cannot percieve everything that one cloud does and can never remove that single cloud to understand what would be different without that single cloud.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    Talk.
    My perception of reality has little to do with what reality is, but has everything to do with how I interact with reality.

  8. #48
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Would most people here disagree that there is an objective reality even though we experience it subjectively?
    There is an objective reality... however its nature is irrelevent to us. That's what I've been trying to say all this time. Objective reality... whatever it might be is not useful to us in any way. Why not focus our energy on the subjective where it can be of use?

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    C'mon, science is based on reality not perception.

    We perceive that the Sun goes round the Earth, but the reality is that the Earth goes round the Sun.
    But Victor... Science is based on perception... our observation no matter how objectively we try to make them is based on what we perceived.

    So the interesting question arises - why do we want to deceive ourselves?

    And the answer might be - it is left over from childhood.

    All children go through a narcissistic phase where they need to be loved unconditionally, and if they are not love unconditionally at this time, they carry the longing over into adulthood.
    The alternate answer could be that we do not need to know the objective truth.

    Given the subjective reality is a reflection of some portion of the objective reality. The two are connected such that by influencing the subjective reality, we affect the objective one. Alteration of the objective reality can naturally been seen in our subjective reality. In this case do we need to know what's going on objectively? For practical purposes the objective reality can be treated as the black box it is.

    "Perception is reality" has never been meant to be taken literally. Perception and reality here is defined by our psyche (if you don't like the term... our consciousness). There's suppose to be a second unspoken phrase to go with that... Change in our perception will change reality. From psychology... change in believes -> change in attitudes -> change in behaviour. Change how our attitude will change how we perceive an event and changing our evaluation of the event will influence how we act. By our actions, we change reality.

    In the end, I think it's the same for any words of "wisdom"... It works within a set of constrains... take it too far out of context and it becomes ridiculous.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by nightning View Post
    But Victor... Science is based on perception...
    This is true.

    And science is based on many, many perceptions of reality. And all these perceptions are analysed statistically.

    Then other independent scientists seek to replicate the perceptions and analysis them, and then validate or falsify them.

    What becomes very apparent in all this is that one perception does does not give a good picture of reality.

    While you and I are limited to one perception at a time, we are plainly going to miss reality by a long shot.

    The important thing is to reality-test our perceptions.

    It is important to test our perceptions against reality, not the other way round.

    And this is what we fail to do here - we fail to test our perceptions of MBTI types against reality.

    And so our perception of MBTI is out of touch with reality.

    And this is why we deny reality.

    And when a person is out of touch with reality, we say they are psychotic. But when a group is out of touch with reality, we say they are a cult.

    This is why I say MBTI is a cult.

  10. #50
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    But the cult of MBTI can still provide beneficial effects no?

    It's just a tool... like a gun. The existence of MBTI encourages people to think about interpersonal interactions... on how to better understand and get along with others. Do we need truth for that job? Would the empirically derived Big 5 be helpful for this purpose? No.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

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