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  1. #11
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    I'll discuss with you, Peguy.

    You have never had a proletarian revolution.
    (I'm quoting Victor but asking you)

    So, my question is, does the US (Australia, Canada etc.) *need* a proletarian revolution? Or were these countries generally founded on post revolutionary and/or Enlightenment values? I would argue that they were. The proletariat in Canada, for example, does not need to revolt. They have access and opportunities. They are not ruled by an aristocracy. Would there be anything to revolt against?
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Victor, if you're going to address me, please make an actual coherent point. This is just you twisting words around in a vain attempt to appear rather clever. You're not fooling me Victor, and in truth you never did.

    I'm looking for an actual intellectual discussion on this topic. This does not count.
    C'mon Peguy, you are the perfect foil for me - if you didn't exist, I would have to invent you.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    So, my question is, does the US (Australia, Canada etc.) *need* a proletarian revolution? Or were these countries generally founded on post revolutionary and/or Enlightenment values? I would argue that they were. The proletariat in Canada, for example, does not need to revolt. They have access and opportunities. They are not ruled by an aristocracy. Would there be anything to revolt against?
    Quite so.

    And an important point to remember is that we have democratised our enlightened aristocratic values so that they are now shared by each and every one of us.

    And it is this democratisation that has led to our egalitarian societies.

    And in Oz, we make a meal of egalitarianism.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    I'll discuss with you, Peguy.
    (I'm quoting Victor but asking you)

    So, my question is, does the US (Australia, Canada etc.) *need* a proletarian revolution? Or were these countries generally founded on post revolutionary and/or Enlightenment values? I would argue that they were. The proletariat in Canada, for example, does not need to revolt. They have access and opportunities. They are not ruled by an aristocracy. Would there be anything to revolt against?

    Well there are several factors to consider here. First, as far as the Enlightenment is concerned, there were considerable differences between the English and French Enlightenment.

    Second, we must also take in effect the observations Alexis de Tocqueville made in Democracy in America about how the very nature of American society rendered a violent revolution rather unlikely. Particularly the fact that because of its vast openness, acquiring land and thus property was far easier than in many parts of Europe.

    He even went further and argued that violent revolutions are rare in democracies altogether. If one looks at the historical record, you could see he had a point. Not that democracies have never had to face violent insurrections; but I've yet to think of one democracy in the modern age that's actually been toppled by one. You can't even point to Germany, since Hitler's 1923 putsch attempt was crushed and he came to the conclusion that power had to be obtained through democratic means.

    There's so many other factors to consider here as well.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    C'mon Peguy, you are the perfect foil for me - if you didn't exist, I would have to invent you.
    And if you didn't exist, I would have no need to invent you.

  6. #16
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    First, as far as the Enlightenment is concerned, there were considerable differences between the English and French Enlightenment.
    English Enlightenment FTW!

    So, re: revolution, you wouldn't say one is 'needed' or somehow on the way in, for example, the US? I certainly wouldn't.

    I do not think I would describe the general values of the US as aristocratic. Not at all. Same goes for Canada, AUS etc.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Second, we must also take in effect the observations Alexis de Tocquveille made in Democracy in America about how the very nature of American society rendered a violent revolution rather unlikely.
    Oh Peguy, you are talking as if you didn't run a treacherous and murderous revolution against the Crown for eight, count them, eight years.

    If you hadn't succeeded, you would have all been hung.

    And you delude yourselves into thinking that successful treachery is no treachery at all.

  8. #18
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    Well actually, the American South did have a geniune aristocratic tradition which impressed many Europeans. However, the Southern aristocracy was attached to republican ideals as opposed to monarchist ones.

    Aristocracies in their true forms tend to be found within agrarian-based societies. Contrast with the South, the North was a more merchantile society and thus was more "middle-class" in nature.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    I do not think I would describe the general values of the US as aristocratic. Not at all. Same goes for Canada, AUS etc.
    It's plain you don't know what aristocratic values are, any more than you know what Enlightenment values are.

    Yet you speak with such confidence.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Oh Peguy, you are talking as if you didn't run a treacherous and murderous revolution against the Crown for eight, count them, eight years.
    If you're trying to claim I know nothing of the American Revolution, then you're quite wrong sir.

    I'm talking about Tocqueville's observations about America, which were written in the 1830's and 40's. That means 50-60 years AFTER the Revolution.

    Now, what does my supposed ignorance of the American Revolution have to do with Tocqueville's observations? Well?

    Once again Victor, thank you for proving my point. I'm interested in an actual discussion on this issue, not childish games. Stop wasting my time!

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