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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Why do you assume that the only path for a person with maturity is "to come to realize that they make their own meaning in life?" That is rather presumptuous of you, don't you think? Perhaps it isn't the most mature route. (That could be a cause for depression.)
    I appreceate your sentiment, and thank you for your concern.

    Not to offend anyone, but I've known devout Chiristians, and devout believers of every major religion, who were quite a bit more depressed than I am (Besides, mine seems to be rooted in biology).

    I've studied the major religions. I spent almost 4 years (and 4 churches) on Chiristianity.

    It maybe presumptuous to believe that we make our own meaning in our lives. But it is presumption I've come to believe after a lot of thought and study.

    Anyone who has beliefs about meaning in life, is being presumptuous.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #12
    Senior Member Hirsch63's Avatar
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    Artworks contain a number of elements (line, mass, color etc.) and these elements are arranged into a composition using the principles of art (balance, rhythm, etc.). Our artworks or compositions are under our control; we choose to engage in the artistic process and also the materials we may use. So, there is a framework and a process to artistic efforts even "folk" art can be described using the commonly understood elements and principles.

    Could the elements and principles of art find relatives in philosophical theory? Or could they find a relationship to Maslow's hierarchies?

    We can certainly try to make our lives an art; a practised way of being that requires deliberate reaction to the reality we find ourselves within. Unlike our art where we are "in control" the practice of our lives may be subject to forces beyond our influence and our lives become "collaborative" artworks, like it or not.

    Finding a framework within which to live, a religious or political philosophy can certainly allow us to find meaning with minimal effort; it is a paint-by-numbers sort of existence living as a rigid adherent. Choosing a prescribed path does not imply Good vs. Bad or right vs. wrong...that is still up to the individual. To create a life outside of commonly (or familiarly) accepted modes is to invite scrutiny (usually from the aforementioned rigid adherents)...Frida Kahlo may serve as an unconventional example for her time and not suprisingly her life is immersed in art and her art in her life. Jesus son of Joseph too...very unconventional in his interpretations of the spirit of the law over the letter, an adherent to be sure but not rigid as much as impassioned. I am confident that history is full of examples from every culture.

    There is more freedom in the creation of our art than in the creation of our lives. I do not mean to say that a meaningful life cannot be created; just that it may require from us our greatest depths of imagination and commited effort; with this it is almost inevitable that art will be produced as a side effect.

    Is our depression a result of an undefined goal or our inability to achieve an end long sought? How do we hit our target when it may always be movng or not there at all? In choosing our purpose we are allowed our greatest latitude and opportunity for creativity. What if we fall short, repeatedly? Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over yet expecting for a different result? Is that dogged pursuance of the apparently unobtainable a noble quest? Conciet? Immaturity? Can we have everything, anything we want damn the expense? Is our depression a form of pouting? As someone personally affected by depression I have wieghed this idea many times...I believe much of our meloncholies can be a physical phenomena...yet when we are ill, compromised there is an opportunity for less desireable traits to works their way into our behaviour and thought serruptitiously compounding our frustration and undermining our focus.
    Patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings...Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you a king

  3. #13
    Lasting_Pain
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I rather like starting with one word, then seeing what is says and writing it down. Then I have two words who are having a conversation and all I have to do is eavesdrop.
    lol, that was quite funny.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I appreceate your sentiment, and thank you for your concern.

    Not to offend anyone, but I've known devout Chiristians, and devout believers of every major religion, who were quite a bit more depressed than I am (Besides, mine seems to be rooted in biology).

    I've studied the major religions. I spent almost 4 years (and 4 churches) on Chiristianity.

    It maybe presumptuous to believe that we make our own meaning in our lives. But it is presumption I've come to believe after a lot of thought and study.

    Anyone who has beliefs about meaning in life, is being presumptuous.
    We'll have to agree to disagree on who is being presumptuous.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  5. #15
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasting_Pain View Post
    lol, that was quite funny.
    I do have a problem.

    Quite often when I am being literal, I come across as funny.

    I have often wondered why.

    At first I thought it was the fault of the listener, in that perhaps they didn't understand what I was saying, so kind of, laughed.

    But now I don't think this is correct.

    I think the humour is somehow in the way I say things and what I say.

    But the my problem is that I can't see it myself.

    It seems to me that I am just saying what is literally true.

  6. #16
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I do have a problem.

    Quite often when I am being literal, I come across as funny.

    I have often wondered why.

    At first I thought it was the fault of the listener, in that perhaps they didn't understand what I was saying, so kind of, laughed.

    But now I don't think this is correct.

    I think the humour is somehow in the way I say things and what I say.

    But the my problem is that I can't see it myself.

    It seems to me that I am just saying what is literally true.
    A few may mock. But I believe you are deadly serious, whatever the affectations ascribed.

    In comedy lurks the things we don't want to hear, just as the interwebs beckon come-hither. Like a bar with blacked-out windows that yells, Stay out. But go in for a pint.

    As you know, with every festival comes a certain amount of cruelty. And there's the paradox.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hirsch63 View Post
    Artworks contain a number of elements (line, mass, color etc.) and these elements are arranged into a composition using the principles of art (balance, rhythm, etc.). Our artworks or compositions are under our control; we choose to engage in the artistic process and also the materials we may use. So, there is a framework and a process to artistic efforts even "folk" art can be described using the commonly understood elements and principles.

    Could the elements and principles of art find relatives in philosophical theory? Or could they find a relationship to Maslow's hierarchies?

    We can certainly try to make our lives an art; a practised way of being that requires deliberate reaction to the reality we find ourselves within. Unlike our art where we are "in control" the practice of our lives may be subject to forces beyond our influence and our lives become "collaborative" artworks, like it or not.

    Finding a framework within which to live, a religious or political philosophy can certainly allow us to find meaning with minimal effort; it is a paint-by-numbers sort of existence living as a rigid adherent. Choosing a prescribed path does not imply Good vs. Bad or right vs. wrong...that is still up to the individual. To create a life outside of commonly (or familiarly) accepted modes is to invite scrutiny (usually from the aforementioned rigid adherents)...Frida Kahlo may serve as an unconventional example for her time and not suprisingly her life is immersed in art and her art in her life. Jesus son of Joseph too...very unconventional in his interpretations of the spirit of the law over the letter, an adherent to be sure but not rigid as much as impassioned. I am confident that history is full of examples from every culture.

    There is more freedom in the creation of our art than in the creation of our lives. I do not mean to say that a meaningful life cannot be created; just that it may require from us our greatest depths of imagination and commited effort; with this it is almost inevitable that art will be produced as a side effect.

    Is our depression a result of an undefined goal or our inability to achieve an end long sought? How do we hit our target when it may always be movng or not there at all? In choosing our purpose we are allowed our greatest latitude and opportunity for creativity. What if we fall short, repeatedly? Isn't the definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over yet expecting for a different result? Is that dogged pursuance of the apparently unobtainable a noble quest? Conciet? Immaturity? Can we have everything, anything we want damn the expense? Is our depression a form of pouting? As someone personally affected by depression I have wieghed this idea many times...I believe much of our meloncholies can be a physical phenomena...yet when we are ill, compromised there is an opportunity for less desireable traits to works their way into our behaviour and thought serruptitiously compounding our frustration and undermining our focus.
    This is rather insightful Hirsch. You've given me a lot to ponder. Thankyou.

    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree on who is being presumptuous.
    Certainly. I hope you know that I wasn't trying to mock your faith.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #18
    heart on fire
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    Working creatively will put a person in direct contact with their inner most emotions, I think and so it may actually increase feelings of depression at times in very sharp focus.

    Quote Originally Posted by hirsch
    ...yet when we are ill, compromised there is an opportunity for less desireable traits to works their way into our behaviour and thought serruptitiously compounding our frustration and undermining our focus.
    Absoultely.

  9. #19
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree on who is being presumptuous.
    you do realize that he included himself in the
    "Anyone who has beliefs about meaning in life, is being presumptuous"?

    further, even if one particular religion did get to dictate "the meaning of life", the majority of the world would not be a part of that religion (is islam or christianity over 50% of the world yet?) and so when the true meaning of life is waged on to those who followed it, the rest will be screwed. For those people left out, in the most practical sense, the meaning they made up for themselves will be the closest thing they had to a meaning (since they missed out on the true one).

  10. #20
    ish red no longer *sad* nightning's Avatar
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    Sounds strange coming from an NJ... but the process of creating to me is about letting go of your expectations and just immerse yourself in the creativity process. It's true that the final product matters... but in order to create something that's meaningful to you... you have to experience the process... to "fully live it".

    I don't know about anybody else... but for me... being depressed leads to the fear of failure. Worrying over how something is going to turn out badly... and that hampers with the creative process.
    My stuff (design & other junk) lives here: http://nnbox.ca

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