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  1. #31
    Just a statistic rhinosaur's Avatar
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    Yeah, the wording of that archaic Golden Rule is screwed up. There is a lot of meaning tied up in it that goes beyond the literal. Societal expectations for how to behave. Play nice, and stuff like that.

    You start with the literal interpretation, which boils down to "Treat others the way you would want to be treated if you were in their shoes, instead of not thinking about the effect your actions have." From there you build upon it, adding exceptions and fine-tuning for specific actions and specific people.

    The Golden Rule is one of my favorites, as I've interpreted it in the quotation marks above. For me, it's really about putting yourself in other people's shoes, and thinking about the consequences of one's actions.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Hah, yes, I see how that could be pervasive reasoning for children in a Sunday school. However, it does not give any explanation as to the functional or consequential advantages of the golden rule.
    The functional and consequential advantage of obeying the golden rule is that it pleases the Lord our God. That results in the consequences of good results for ourselves because He stated it for our benefit and it functions to smooth relations between basically incompatible human beings because of the fall.
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  3. #33
    Member Ojian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, imagine this (and I know this is not a totally realistic scenario, it just conveys a point). If a masochist follows the golden rule, does that masochist become a sadist? It seems to make sense. They want pain done unto them, so do pain unto others.

    But, we can assume that a good portion of the population isn't masochistic in this manner, and would object severely to having pain bestowed upon them. This an example of where different values cause a serious problem for the golden. The world would certainly be a worse place for at least one party in this scenario.
    I don't think that the Golden Rule necessarily applies in EVERY situation for EVERY minutia of human interaction, but nobody is saying it need to either. It's called "Golden" because of it's perceived value or relevance in human interactions, not some Midas reference

    With that said, I don't think that the masochist example is a fair one. For one, I wouldn't say the Golden Rule applies to self destructive behavior. In fact, just being a sadist probably violates the golden rule. But I think the masochist description is a little misleading. Even if you accept that it is not a destructive behavior, a masochist doesn't want just pain, they want pleasure - they just happen to derive that from pain in some circumstances. I doubt a masochist would WANT to be walking down the street and then have a gang jump them and beat them half to death, but throw them in someones dungeon bedroom with a wall of whips and their happy. If you could apply the golden rule to this situation (and this is probably not realistic either), a masochist would only 'perform' with a willing partner (otherwise forcing it is a violation of the rule), and would have to be willing to inflict their 'pain for pleasure' on the willing partner if desired. And even if they did 'inflict the pain', it wouldnt necessarily make them a sadist, as they might not derive pleasure from that action.

    If a person objected to pain being bestowed on them, then the masochist/sadist wouldnt inflict it if they were following the golden rule. The masochist may want his pain, but they will never get it from an unwilling counterpart, and the rule doesn't indicate he necessarily should. But if a mashochist does apply the rule, he is probably more likely to find a counterpart willing to give him what he wants.

    The rule never states that if a person does x, he will get x. Whether or not a person gets what he wants is irrelevant. The rule is proactive, not reactive. A person will act on principle, regardless whether it is returned or not. Most people want respect and kindness. The rule is there to foster such. Someone practicing respect and kindness may not get it back from everyone, but nothing in the rule said they would. But I bet that someone practicing respect and kindness towards others will more likely than not do get it back from some, probably others applying the same rule. And if everyone did that, the world would be a better place.

  4. #34
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Spongey, I believe that the particular situation represented would be counter active of what the masochist needs. In that situation, it isn't a matter of putting himself in another's shoes.. He is not changing who he is in the process, because if he did, he would attract the very being he is, instead of the proper yang for his ying.

    I don't think the Golden rule applies to the essential core of a human being. Only suggesting that there is more than the essentials to consider.
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  5. #35
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The point I made wasn't so much based on the actual psychology of your typical masochist, it was just a demonstration of where this golden rule could go really wrong. Most times it's failure is not at all the extreme or colorful, it still ends up being an odd case of people projecting their desires and values onto others, and then treating them based on it. I see it cause problems in romantic relationships a lot. With my parents (not that I'd call that romantic, hah) there has been this unending problem where neither of them could imagine what would seem goo to the other one, so they attempt to reward, punish, or communicate in ways that all totally fail, because they're acting like they're dealing with another one of themselves.

    I also think the responses to the masochism example actually revealed one of the things I was going for. Once I brought that example up, you had to provide a lot more specifications and qualifiers that were based on more deliberate interpretations. So, the golden is not hardly just that one line we have been using to represent it, as there must be far more details. This is problematic though because even if you decide to write out the comprehensive golden rule, as if it were a legal document or a game guide, it would all come down to your way of picking and choosing how you want to apply the golden rule, which may not be agreable to others.
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  6. #36
    Member Ojian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I also think the responses to the masochism example actually revealed one of the things I was going for. Once I brought that example up, you had to provide a lot more specifications and qualifiers that were based on more deliberate interpretations. So, the golden is not hardly just that one line we have been using to represent it, as there must be far more details. This is problematic though because even if you decide to write out the comprehensive golden rule, as if it were a legal document or a game guide, it would all come down to your way of picking and choosing how you want to apply the golden rule, which may not be agreable to others.
    Hmm, that's interesting, because I would probably want to switch around the where the specifics need to be addressed. If I understood right, you are saying that in order for the GR to work, there would need to be more specifics in the rule to apply to the myriad of ways humans may interact.

    I dont think that the GR needs to be made more specific. As a general rule it is fine. The only qualification on the rule itself I would make is to say it doesnt apply to self-destructive desires. Where the specifics need to apply is in looking at ones actions against the rule. in the Masochist example, I think you misstated their premise. Its too simplistic or inaccurate to say a masochist wants pain inflicted on them. Otherwise then you could say they would be happy to have someone randomly club them over the head while out walking. If someone was happy for that to happen, 1) they wouldnt necessarily be a masochist, and 2) that is clearly a self-destructive desire. (Another example might be someone wanting to commit suicide by having the police kill them. The GR wouldn't work well for them.) Though I'd hate to do it, you would have to break down the specifics of what actions a masochist wants or is considering and apply them to the GR. Given: they derive pleasure from having pain inflicted on them. But likely the source of that pain is not unknown, nor performed without consent from the masochist. If the were applying the GR in this odd case, they would never inflict pain onto another person that did not consent or want it)

    But for nearly everyone else where they are not seeking their own destruction or damage, the GR works pretty well. You mentioned you've seen it not work in relationships a lot. Could you provide a specific example of such? I could be wrong, but I bet if you broke down their actions into detail (not adding to the rule in detail), you'll find that the problem source wasnt the one applying the GR.

    It's been said before, but applying the GR doesn't guarantee the results one wants. The rule doesn't need the addendum, but it could be said as: "You do to others just as you would have them do to you, and that regardless of what they may do."

  7. #37
    Lasting_Pain
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Of course I did. It was in a Christian nursery school and I told them that Jesus said to do it. And that is the Truth.
    You Can't Argue With Jesus.....................................
























    I mean literally you can't argue with Jesus.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasting_Pain View Post
    You Can't Argue With Jesus.....................................
























    I mean literally you can't argue with Jesus.
    Being a Christian, I do it a lot, much to my chagrin. I have to repent a lot.
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  9. #39
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Well, if you don't mind Jesus arguing with you too, maybe it's okay.

  10. #40
    Lasting_Pain
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Being a Christian, I do it a lot, much to my chagrin. I have to repent a lot.
    I meant you can't argue with someone who is not there. It would be like arguing with yourself.

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