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  1. #21

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    I always liked Carl Sagan's rules. From Billions & Billions. Here is a PDF.

    The Golden Rule Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

    The Silver Rule Do not do unto others what you would not have them do unto you.

    The Brazen Rule Do unto others as they do unto you.

    The Iron Rule Do unto others as you like, before they do it unto you.

    The Tit-for-Tat Rule Cooperate with others first, then do unto them as they do unto you.

  2. #22
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    [...]the idea behind a rule of conduct.
    Which would be...?


    And whatever the idea is, is it not screwed if individually differing value systems instantiate the idea differently. Which they do. So if you have a pretty strong idea of what is and isn't valuable, and how to perform it, and another person has a substantially different idea, what then?

    And MBTI stuff tends to suggest not only that there are substantially different individual value systems in every large enough community, but that those differing systems are all normal and all suitably functional, or at least internally consistent and capable of self-checking. So what now?



    (The Tit-for-Tat Rule seems like the only workable one, but it's still flawed.)

  3. #23
    Member Ojian's Avatar
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    Why would differing value systems even matter? It's not a meant to define or raise standards of good, or to weigh the merits of one's beliefs vs anothers. It is simply a statement of how to generally conduct yourself with other people.

    If everyone followed this rule, the world would be a better place.

  4. #24
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ojian View Post
    Why would differing value systems even matter? It's not a meant to define or raise standards of good, or to weigh the merits of one's beliefs vs anothers. It is simply a statement of how to generally conduct yourself with other people.

    If everyone followed this rule, the world would be a better place.
    Well, imagine this (and I know this is not a totally realistic scenario, it just conveys a point). If a masochist follows the golden rule, does that masochist become a sadist? It seems to make sense. They want pain done unto them, so do pain unto others.

    But, we can assume that a good portion of the population isn't masochistic in this manner, and would object severely to having pain bestowed upon them. This an example of where different values cause a serious problem for the golden. The world would certainly be a worse place for at least one party in this scenario.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  5. #25
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    I taught little three year olds this concept in nursery school. It's just not that difficult to understand or apply. Get real.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  6. #26
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Some wholly imaginary value systems, in precis, that differ:

    system 1 - it's better to follow well-understood social mores.
    system 2 - you aren't real unless you've worked out for yourself what you must do.
    system 3 - if you lie, I will never speak to you again.
    system 4 - I'll know the truth, and work toward it, but other things govern what I actually say.
    system 5 - truth is far less important than stability.
    system 6 - truth is far less important than warmth.

    And those are just the normal systems. Is anyone seriously saying these differing ideas do NOT leading to differing styles of interaction, some of which are positively antithetical?

    People, c'mon, different types piss you off in different ways! Do you really want them insisting that you do unto them what they do unto you?

    EDIT: actually, really, the golden rule is wrong really only if individual people are allowed to be their own moral determiner, which is to say, the one who comes up with their own version of right and wrong. Because some people are going to decide right and wrong differently.

    And come to think of it, under the golden rule, duality relationships are kind of illegal.

  7. #27
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    I taught little three year olds this concept in nursery school. It's just not that difficult to understand or apply. Get real.
    Okay, so they understand how it is structured. Did you explain to them why it would be the best workable system of interpersonal ethic?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #28
    Senior Member Journey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Okay, so they understand how it is structured. Did you explain to them why it would be the best workable system of interpersonal ethic?
    Of course I did. It was in a Christian nursery school and I told them that Jesus said to do it. And that is the Truth.
    "My Journey is my Destination."

    "Today Counts Forever." R.C. Sproul

  9. #29
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Journey View Post
    Of course I did. It was in a Christian nursery school and I told them that Jesus said to do it. And that is the Truth.
    Hah, yes, I see how that could be pervasive reasoning for children in a Sunday school. However, it does not give any explanation as to the functional or consequential advantages of the golden rule.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  10. #30
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    If I really don't want you to do unto me what you would have me do unto you were you in my place, are you doing wrong?

    See, the Golden Rule doesn't specify whether you use your understanding or the other person's understanding when you make the test "as you would have them do unto you." If you use your understanding, you can sometimes, maybe are bound sometimes, to insist on things they wouldn't. And if you use their understanding, well, that's a whole other moral code dressed up in mysterious language, namely, put yourself in the others shoes, so why not just say it that way?

    Actually, I think I remember reading that the basic criticism of Kant's Categorical Imperative is it doesn't actually make anything imperative without there being some seed principles for what is and isn't good.

    And the Golden Rule is a suck-ass Fe principle that even they don't follow. I forget where I read that. Some philosophical journal. Kinda surprised they said suck-ass.



    Hm, not sure how snotty I should be here. I'm basically arguing for Fi rights to decide by myself and for myself what is and isn't good. And one of those rights is independence and freedom from constraint. By which it sorta maybe follows that I can't do unto others as I would have them do unto me, because I prefer to do unto others what is actually right and good.

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