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  1. #51
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'd be interested in seeing your sources for this information. Everything I've read reports brain waves beginning in the 8-10week zone, but the necessary neural connections for thinking being made at around 30 weeks.

    Regarding fetal pain, everything is theoretical because they don't completely understand even the adult experience of pain at this point.
    Arguing over timetables and such things is irrelevant, and is simply a search for a moral/ethical excuse. Once the zygote begins cell division as a genetically unique organism, any human action that prevents the natural course of the pregnancy to be realized is preventing the life of a human being. It doesn't matter when you do it. I find terminating at 8-10 weeks no different than terminating at 30 weeks, partial birth, whatever. Why, because it has a face, a heartbeat? Is it more human? Seems silly to me. Pro-choice people should stop trying to hammer down a stage where it's still "ethical," and do more to stress the importance of personal choice and freedom over your body. That is the unassailable argument, I think.



  2. #52
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    So males, what got you interested in being anti-abortion? It doesn't really have much to do with you (unless you're the father) really, it's fully the woman's choice to abort. Pro-choice ftw.
    I'm still wondering where the hell (daddy) went. Could very well be that the gender that is AWOL in the situation should have no buisness in the issue.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  3. #53
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Arguing over timetables and such things is irrelevant, and is simply a search for a moral/ethical excuse. Once the zygote begins cell division as a genetically unique organism, any human action that prevents the natural course of the pregnancy to be realized is preventing the life of a human being. It doesn't matter when you do it. I find terminating at 8-10 weeks no different than terminating at 30 weeks, partial birth, whatever. Why, because it has a face, a heartbeat? Is it more human? Seems silly to me. Pro-choice people should stop trying to hammer down a stage where it's still "ethical," and do more to stress the importance of personal choice and freedom over your body. That is the unassailable argument, I think.
    My intent wasn't to hammer down a stage where it's still ethical. I don't necessarily disagree with you (though I have a difficult time equating a zygote with a 30-week fetus, since I've felt a 30-week fetus moving inside my body). I just have a compulsion to correct inaccurate information when I see it given out as gospel truth.

    Edit: I think my point was similar to yours- there's so much ambiguity involved in the questions of when fetuses can feel or think, and even more involved in asking when they become people. Not even the strictly scientific issues are settled at this point, and the philosophical issues will probably never be. To me this underscores the necessity for allowing it to remain an individual choice left up to the pregnant woman, while working on the sociological factors that lead to abortion being an attractive choice. That includes preventing more unwanted pregnancies, and making it easier for women who might want to continue a pregnancy to do so.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  4. #54
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    I'm still wondering where the hell (daddy) went. Could very well be that the gender that is AWOL in the situation should have no buisness in the issue.
    That's not what I meant. I said unless you're the father, if you impregnate a girl and she wants to keep it it seems like you are SOL in that situation.

    On the general abortion issue is what I meant... No specific situations. Why shouldn't men remain neutral since they cannot get pregnant? It doesn't seem that they would have any place in deciding what a woman does.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  5. #55
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Arguing over timetables and such things is irrelevant, and is simply a search for a moral/ethical excuse. Once the zygote begins cell division as a genetically unique organism, any human action that prevents the natural course of the pregnancy to be realized is preventing the life of a human being. It doesn't matter when you do it. I find terminating at 8-10 weeks no different than terminating at 30 weeks, partial birth, whatever. Why, because it has a face, a heartbeat? Is it more human? Seems silly to me. Pro-choice people should stop trying to hammer down a stage where it's still "ethical," and do more to stress the importance of personal choice and freedom over your body. That is the unassailable argument, I think.
    That is where the male gender comes in play. As both genders, we can argue the lyberty portion of abortion corresponding to our ethics with our belief of lyberty. Oops. i screwballed my previous post, Jock.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  6. #56
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Perhaps it is possible for pro-lifers to accept that it is a womans liberty to abort, as not to be hipocritical to the nature of our confirmed belief in liberty to be numero uno.

    Perhaps the pro-choicers can accept pro-life as a means to present to the youth to be aware of a potential (situation) as a possibility.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  7. #57
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    We can all dream can't we prof? There will always be that person out there willing to kill over these types of silly issues that shouldn't even be issues at all.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  8. #58
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    We can all dream can't we prof? There will always be that person out there willing to kill over these types of silly issues that shouldn't even be issues at all.
    With that dream in mind of abortion being a silly issue, no wonder there are people out there that go to such an extreme. Sound reminiscent of the hate that hate made.
    everyone uses every function about evenly. take NE for example. if there are those who don't use it much, then why are there such massive amounts of people constantly flowing through Wallmart with 20 items or less?

  9. #59
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by professor goodstain View Post
    With that dream in mind of abortion being a silly issue, no wonder there are people out there that go to such an extreme. Sound reminiscent of the hate that hate made.
    It does seem true, it's a moral thing. You can't really change someone's beliefs in that department, no matter how hard you try. When morals clash it creates hate, thus what is happening.

    However it's curious, how do people get these morals? How do people become extreme anti-abortion believers? I get my morals in this area because I believe in equality and choice. I believe these things because it's fair for everyone.

    I think it's a silly issue because it's basically opinion vs opinion, and no one can win.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  10. #60
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Arguing over timetables and such things is irrelevant, and is simply a search for a moral/ethical excuse. Once the zygote begins cell division as a genetically unique organism, any human action that prevents the natural course of the pregnancy to be realized is preventing the life of a human being. It doesn't matter when you do it. I find terminating at 8-10 weeks no different than terminating at 30 weeks, partial birth, whatever. Why, because it has a face, a heartbeat? Is it more human? Seems silly to me.
    Just because it seems silly to you doesn't mean it seems silly to other people.

    It is human nature to identify with something that looks/acts human. The more it looks like a human, the more we identify with it. Why do you think pro-life people constantly flaunt those pictures of fetuses that look like little babies?

    Pro-choice people should stop trying to hammer down a stage where it's still "ethical," and do more to stress the importance of personal choice and freedom over your body. That is the unassailable argument, I think.
    Again, just your NT thoughts.

    Majority of the population is neither N nor T.

    The point I am trying to make, sensitive political issues require an emotional approach as well as logical approach.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

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