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  1. #41
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    My personal beliefs aside, I take issue with most of the author's rationale.


    Another argument of the anti-abortionists is that the fetus is a living human being, and is therefore entitled to all of the rights of human beings. Very good; let us concede, for purposes of the discussion, that fetuses are human beings—or, more broadly, potential human beings—and are therefore entitled to full human rights. But what humans, we may ask, have the right to be coercive parasites within the body of an unwilling human host? Clearly no born humans have such a right, and therefore, a fortiori, the fetus can have no such right either.
    By labeling an entity a "coercive parasite", the author risks overstating her point. Organisms aren't inherently "parasites"; we describe an organism as "parasitic" as a way to classify behavior.

    In this framework, the act of labeling a fetus as "parasitic" is to achieve a reductionist approach, wherein oversimplification of observed behavior replaces empirical evaluation. While certain organisms are observed as "parasites", the application of this label does nothing to ascertain value.

    The author again injects a statement of personal perspective to the biological data when she describes it as "coercive". To add ethical structure to information is irrational.

    Thus, the algorithim fundamental to her logical premise (If a fetus, then a "coercive parasite") is demonstrated as inherently skewed.

    In short, it is impermissible to interpret the term “right to life,” to give one an enforceable claim to the action of someone else to sustain that life.
    This is yet another statement that suffers from oversimplification. Even if we opt to skate around the biological quandary of when life begins, it is certainly a legal/ethical obligation (especially in a clinical setting) to reasonably ensure continuity of life, irrespective of secondary expense.

    It's why we have medical malpractice.

    In our terminology, such a claim would be an impermissible viola*tion of the other person’s right of self-ownership. Or, as Professor Thom*son cogently puts it, “having a right to life does not guarantee having either a right to be given the use of or a right to be allowed continued use of another person’s body—even if one needs it for life itself.”
    Self-ownership is a murky phrase. From a philosophical standpoint, it is probably justifiable to assert that each individual ought to retain absolute agency over his body and what he chooses to do with it.

    Yet, when you factor this endemic right against enforcement of narcotics prohibition and/or the illegality of suicide, it becomes apparent that self-ownership is an impractical basis for legal consideration.

    Again, the terminology seems geared towards capitalizing from opaque biological discourse that does not expressly determine when biological "life" begins.

    If my suspicion is correct -- that the author is working to gain elbow-room because the precise moment when life begins has not been legally defined -- then the argument collapses of its own weight. Logically, if we haven't established when life begins, we cannot gerrymander a legal routine against an unavailable standard. The author's point is therefore without conceivable merit.

    Applying our theory to parents and children, this means that a parent does not have the right to aggress against his children, but also that the parent should not have a legal obligation to feed, clothe, or educate his children, since such obligations would entail positive acts coerced upon the parent and depriving the parent of his rights. The parent therefore may not murder or mutilate his child, and the law properly outlaws a parent from doing so. But the parent should have the legal right not to feed the child, i.e., to allow it to die. The law, therefore, may not properly compel the parent to feed a child or to keep it alive.
    Again, an instance where impractical theory seeks to supersede its inherent barriers.

    It isn't reasonable to reduce the parent/child relationship into a series of symbiotic behaviors. Doing so merely describes observed pattern and does not entirely address the firmament of their connection, or the social necessity in ensuring proper parental responsibilities remain constant and fulfilled.

    We have an ecosystem of social welfare laws enacted to enforce precisely what the author is offering as unenforceable.

    ...

    Disappointing.

  2. #42
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Any argument about abortion ethics is an automatic quagmire, whether you're arguing from the standpoint of freedom or religion or whatever.

    So, let's keep giving women the right to abort. Some people want society to regress and give conservative religious values another shot at power.... but fuck that.

  3. #43
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Any argument about abortion ethics is an automatic quagmire, whether you're arguing from the standpoint of freedom or religion or whatever.
    Agreed.

    For that reason, we should be careful to cultivate our personal attitudes against individual analysis and not rely on institutional mimicry to decide our beliefs.

    To answer the OP, I am Pro-Choice, but anti-Abortion.

  4. #44
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Army View Post
    Brain waves (actual brain waves, not the basic electrical activity resulting from a bunch of cells forming a brain) are usually measured at about 19-20 weeks.

    I suppose it could theoretically feel pain around then because that's when the forebrain begins maturing.

    An electroencephalograph is able to read electrical activity in the brain so long as the organism has functioning organs. This in no way indicates the organism's ability to feel or think.
    I'd be interested in seeing your sources for this information. Everything I've read reports brain waves beginning in the 8-10week zone, but the necessary neural connections for thinking being made at around 30 weeks.

    Regarding fetal pain, everything is theoretical because they don't completely understand even the adult experience of pain at this point.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  5. #45
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    To answer the OP, I am Pro-Choice, but anti-Abortion.
    How come so many pro-choicers feel the need to point out that they are also "anti-abortion"? Everyone on both sides of the issue agrees that unwanted pregnancy and abortion is a very negative scenario, no one is pro-abortion in that sense.

    I think it should be enough to say you are pro-choice and not worry about catering to the people attacking you for being "pro-abortion".

  6. #46
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    You're presuming a perspective that isn't mine, ajblaise.

    I'm Pro-Choice/anti-abortion because although I philosophically disagree with abortion, I don't believe that making it illegal will erase the sociology that instigates it.

    Moreover, repealing the legality of abortion would likely drive the behavior underground and increase the risk of unhygienic infection/complication.

    It's just not worth it to me.

  7. #47
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    So what's the significance of your philosophical disagreement with abortion that makes you different from most pro-choice people? Does it just mean that ideally, you believe people shouldn't abort, but practically, you want it to be allowed?

  8. #48
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    So what's the significance of your philosophical disagreement with abortion that makes you different from most pro-choice people? Does it just mean that ideally, you believe people shouldn't abort, but practically, you want it to be allowed?
    I don't speak for "most Pro-Choice people", so I haven't the slightest clue what you're seeking to uncover by pursuing that train of thought. Seems unreasonable to presume that I would appreciate the diverse rationale that would inspire someone to pursue abortion without investigating intimate context.

    I've offered my stance. Seems pretty clear to me.

  9. #49
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I don't speak for "most Pro-Choice people", so I haven't the slightest clue what you're seeking to uncover by pursuing that train of thought.
    Just that the anti-abortion label is unnecessary, and a little redundant. I get your stance though.

  10. #50
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    So males, what got you interested in being anti-abortion? It doesn't really have much to do with you (unless you're the father) really, it's fully the woman's choice to abort. Pro-choice ftw.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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