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  1. #31
    Senior Member TheLastMohican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Fixed. Different groups can propose any number of "cutoff" points, with any number of corresponding rationalizations. DNA is a cutoff as much as any other.
    Conception is the beginning of the organism's existence, and therefore the earliest possible definition of life worth protecting. All other "cutoff points" are just different periods of development.

  2. #32
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastMohican View Post
    I believe that conception is the beginning of the organism's existence
    Fixed.

    I'm only arguing your wording though, not the morality of abortion. That one's futile with anyone. opinions = opinions.
    -end of thread-

  3. #33
    Senior Member TheLastMohican's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randomnity View Post
    Fixed.
    Does anyone actually disagree with that belief (without altering the definitions of "organism" or "existence")? If so, I would like to hear some alternatives.

    I'm only arguing your wording though, not the morality of abortion. That one's futile with anyone. opinions = opinions.
    I'm arguing the legality of abortion, not the morality.

  4. #34
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, it can be very difficult for some to distinguish between morality and legality, particularly in an issue such as this.
    Personally, I don't feel comfortable about abortion past sixteen weeks, unless genetic abnormalities have been detected in the fetus. I believe it is possible for the fetus to survive at 15 weeks outside of the womb (although for how long I don't know and at what cost? Premature children often have multiple health problems lasting well into adulthood.)
    I believe up to 12 weeks, there are also less problems and risks for the women involved.
    At what point is the nervous system of a fetus fully developed?
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
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  5. #35
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    Firey, I think the cutoff point is about 21/22 weeks, if I'm remembering that right. And at 21-22 weeks the odds of survuval are still extremely low - I think the youngest baby to have survived after premature birth was 22 weeks. Again, iirc.

    As for legal arguments (in response to Orangey) I'm not making one. The point of my post was to highlight how difficult it is to have a concrete position on the issue because it does boil down to personal moral belief. Does one believe a fetus is a human being or not? That's a moral call.

    My stance on this is dependent on the ability to feel pain, still. If a fetus can suffer, I oppose abortion for the personal moral reason/feeling that causing suffering is wrong. If a fetus is at a stage where is cannot suffer then I feel a lot better about being pro-choice. The sticking point is that establishing when a fetus gains the ability to suffer is, so far, impossible.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

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  6. #36
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    My stance on this is dependent on the ability to feel pain, still. If a fetus can suffer, I oppose abortion for the personal moral reason/feeling that causing suffering is wrong. If a fetus is at a stage where is cannot suffer then I feel a lot better about being pro-choice. The sticking point is that establishing when a fetus gains the ability to suffer is, so far, impossible.
    Also depends what you consider suffering. Do you consider the twitch reflex of pain to be suffering, or the sensation afterwards? Do you consider non-painful abortion to be suffering?

  7. #37
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLastMohican View Post
    Does anyone actually disagree with that belief (without altering the definitions of "organism" or "existence")? If so, I would like to hear some alternatives.
    Depends on what is your idea of an organism.

    A malignant tumor that is growing inside of one's skull could be argued to be an organism.

    But to me, what it all boils down to is personal liberties. A person has a right to do with his body as he pleases (barring certain limited exceptions).

    It would be nice for a pregnant woman to carry a fetus to term, just like it would be nice for me to donate a kidney to a person who otherwise would not survive without it. But forcing one to do so is a violation of personal liberties.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    What Edgar said. For me, it's not about the fetus. It's about the woman.

  9. #39
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    As for legal arguments (in response to Orangey) I'm not making one. The point of my post was to highlight how difficult it is to have a concrete position on the issue because it does boil down to personal moral belief. Does one believe a fetus is a human being or not? That's a moral call.
    Oh, no, I was agreeing with you about it being a practical issue. Women will always abort whether it is legal or not, so why not have it legalized (and regulated) so that people can have access to safer, cleaner facilities? I was also agreeing that I do sometimes have some ethical reservations about it, especially with late term abortions, but that this is beside the point when it comes to determining the legality of the act for other people.

    I said the 'legal and philosophical argument' bit in my last post because I wanted to shield myself from any rebuttals, since I don't know enough about the various arguments to be able to engage. It wasn't actually directed at you or your comment.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  10. #40
    Senior Member Tiny Army's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    Does one believe a fetus is a human being or not? That's a moral call.

    My stance on this is dependent on the ability to feel pain, still. If a fetus can suffer, I oppose abortion for the personal moral reason/feeling that causing suffering is wrong. If a fetus is at a stage where is cannot suffer then I feel a lot better about being pro-choice. The sticking point is that establishing when a fetus gains the ability to suffer is, so far, impossible.
    Brain waves (actual brain waves, not the basic electrical activity resulting from a bunch of cells forming a brain) are usually measured at about 19-20 weeks.

    I suppose it could theoretically feel pain around then because that's when the forebrain begins maturing.

    An electroencephalograph is able to read electrical activity in the brain so long as the organism has functioning organs. This in no way indicates the organism's ability to feel or think.

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