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Thread: Truth or Peace?

  1. #31
    Senior Member plaguerat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    kindness defines a course of action. as such it is subjective. but how it is perceived is very secondary. it is relevant to actions that are not even perceived at all. you could call it sensitivity
    on a personal level, I'm not a very sensitive person.

    Society, however, seems to be quite the opposite. Is it our moral obligations as humans to persue truth at any cost, or please the masses by effectively "lying"?
    VI VERI VENIVERSUM VIVUS VIVCI
    "By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe."

  2. #32
    Senior Member plaguerat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Well in a previous question you said what was better for the masses.

    Just because something is good for you personally doesn't mean it's good for the masses.
    Which was the second part of the question.
    A moral dilema: would you
    A) go with your personal convictions, whatever they may be, for the benefit of humanity
    or
    B) do you go against what you believe is right (again, whatever it may be) for the sake of either peace or truth. (assuming the two exist at the moment opposite each other)
    VI VERI VENIVERSUM VIVUS VIVCI
    "By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe."

  3. #33
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    Is it our moral obligations as humans to persue truth at any cost, or please the masses by effectively "lying"?
    the right understanding of "truth" is based on reality. you cannot pursue/persuade truth, unless you try to pursue/persuade reality. reductionist fixed theories are not the truth. the truth is, that misunderstandings are real and inevitable.

    as for the idea, that truth can not be absolute/"there is no absolute truth". that would be a rather impossible/inapplicable statement, if "truth" were understood in the right way. however truth is not unreal, just because it is relative. and there is a structural order of relations, from primitive and often harsh but essential structure to sophisticated structure, with broad potential for both wealth, and error.

    the right course of political action tries to be sensitive to relativity, translating relative madness (as made up by uninformed motivation) to relative truth (as seen by sober perception), while at the same time it tries to enable a rise in the order of relative truth, that is to say, an exchange of the current paradigm of truth to a higher (ie more differentiated*) truth, but only to a degree that is synchronized to the ever growing structural differentiation of practical 'possibilities' in the neighborhood or world.

    *formulation for sake of simplicity

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by plaguerat View Post
    agreed. However, in a modern world, the effect of truth on the masses is another thing entirely. While the optimal product of truth is ultimate peace, many take it in and it negatively affects them; rather than viewing it as a helping tool, they percieve it as a crippling contradiction to an unquestionable world.
    right. so the masses need to be prepared for the truth before turning on the light.

    just like how, if we expect sudden light to flood a dark room with us in it, we will close our eye and then open them slowly so they become accustomed to increasing light intensity, educate the masses through cause and effect.

    tell them about the truth, but not the truth itself
    tell them how it will affect their lives
    tell them how it will ruin the their good world
    tell them that before you can have sex, you have to get naked OR that you have to get your feet wet if you want to cross the river
    tell them how, after the ruination, the good order will be restored with much stronger and integral foundations
    if they are ready, tell them the truth.

  5. #35
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by plaguerat View Post
    Would you choose ultimate truth or peace in ignorance?

    Say, in a position of power over many people, which would you stake in order to achieve the other?

    Large scale societies and on a personal level, which would you uphold?
    Truth over peace, if I had to choose. Often they are interconnected, however: People don't find peace until they know the truth.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  6. #36
    Senior Member plaguerat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Truth over peace, if I had to choose. Often they are interconnected, however: People don't find peace until they know the truth.
    that is quite true. Unless they have found a "peace" of their own, in which case anyone else's percieved truth (actual or not) would ruin their state of mind.

    IN my personal opinion though, I think the truth should be learned of at all costs, those who don't like it must either combat it with a truth of their own or get over it.

    So really I guess its more of a question of how far you manipulate those with less information than you and to what extent the truth can go.
    VI VERI VENIVERSUM VIVUS VIVCI
    "By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe."

  7. #37
    Senior Member plaguerat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanook View Post
    the right understanding of "truth" is based on reality. you cannot pursue/persuade truth, unless you try to pursue/persuade reality. reductionist fixed theories are not the truth. the truth is, that misunderstandings are real and inevitable.

    as for the idea, that truth can not be absolute/"there is no absolute truth". that would be a rather impossible/inapplicable statement, if "truth" were understood in the right way. however truth is not unreal, just because it is relative. and there is a structural order of relations, from primitive and often harsh but essential structure to sophisticated structure, with broad potential for both wealth, and error.

    the right course of political action tries to be sensitive to relativity, translating relative madness (as made up by uninformed motivation) to relative truth (as seen by sober perception), while at the same time it tries to enable a rise in the order of relative truth, that is to say, an exchange of the current paradigm of truth to a higher (ie more differentiated*) truth, but only to a degree that is synchronized to the ever growing structural differentiation of practical 'possibilities' in the neighborhood or world.

    *formulation for sake of simplicity
    hmm, you make an interesting argument. Truth is a very personal thing, and can literally be changed depending on a myriad of factors from simple point of view, education, and the like to philosophic and religious views.

    A piece of information, however, can be attributed to "truth" at some points. The real question may not be whether or not truth exists in itself but instead how far you control the meaning of certain things with the "truth" label.

    Or just how far you manioulate people or let them manioulate themselvs.

    (I.e. Do you tell your dying mother who truly and honestly believes there's say, a cat sleeping next to her every night, that there really isn't? She may (this is all hypothetical) recieve great joy from such an occurance, and do you convince her that there isn't? Do you (morally, personally, or as humans in general) tell a child who's father haas just died that he raped and beat its mother constantly?)

    Truth per se as a concept is highly debatable and, in many situations, not a stable variable. Pure information, however, is.
    VI VERI VENIVERSUM VIVUS VIVCI
    "By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe."

  8. #38
    Senior Member plaguerat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thisGuy View Post
    right. so the masses need to be prepared for the truth before turning on the light.

    just like how, if we expect sudden light to flood a dark room with us in it, we will close our eye and then open them slowly so they become accustomed to increasing light intensity, educate the masses through cause and effect.

    tell them about the truth, but not the truth itself
    tell them how it will affect their lives
    tell them how it will ruin the their good world
    tell them that before you can have sex, you have to get naked OR that you have to get your feet wet if you want to cross the river
    tell them how, after the ruination, the good order will be restored with much stronger and integral foundations
    if they are ready, tell them the truth.
    that is a very sensical solution. It would (and should) work for the masses.

    On a personal level though, I think I would prefer all of the truth, even if it would hurt. i'd much rather not be decieved (by myself or others) about a particular instance or really anything at all. Heh, which may very well be why I fit the INTJ bill.

    I laughed at the sex part. The sad thing is, I've heard that before, and they were serious.
    VI VERI VENIVERSUM VIVUS VIVCI
    "By the power of truth, I, while living, have conquered the universe."

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