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  1. #11
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Nature is a holographic computer program that can be hacked and manipulated at will, destroying old laws and programming new laws into the Existential Game, moving above and beyond the terrestrial spheres of the matrix, becoming the Grand Architect of Creation!
    how do you manipulate the nature with your will, when your will is just another construct of nature and all the things your will makes are dependent of your nurture and nature?

    i used to think that yea, because i can choose one over another, i am somehow outside of nature(which just does what it does without thinking it). but when you think about it in deeper level; "what made you choose this over that?", you naturally come to the question of will, but why your will wants to do what it wants to do?

    i think there is basically one rule to everything in the universe, 'everything that can happen, does happen', the path of least resistance is naturally a part of this. since the thing with least resistance is the one that does happen and since it has taken this certain path, it cant simultaneously be on another path, therefore one is excluded over another one. naturally we could talk about quantum physics, but i dont see that as being relevant to the physics which our brains obey.

    illusion of choice is what makes human mind seem detached from rest of the nature, or to be more precise, its the complexity of human mind that builds the illusion of choice, thus only seemingly removing us from rest of the nature.

    i dont think humans are capable of creating new laws, even if the whole idea is that there is no strict laws, its not laws that we create, its just patterns that we observe and theorize, which we werent aware of before.

    talking about how laws of the universe work, we must include the laws by which our mind works, since our mind is just a parts of nature of the universe. i like to view this topic according to the same one rule that applies to everything else in the nature, which i think is good to separate into few pieces;

    1. law of exclusion, if something happens because of some particular thing in one moment, it excludes something else that the same thing might had done in the same moment.

    2. path of least resistance, everything that happens in the law of exclusion, happens because that particular thing at that particular moment had least resistance towards the path of action it took.

    3. everything moves all the time. even tho its not always clear to observer that something is moving, it doesent mean that its still, but just tells about the limits of our observation. when it comes to matter, its just energy moving, not towards something, but the essence of matter is that its just energy moving in loops, instead of moving towards observed direction, thus creating gravity force and other forces of nature that we can observe.

    4. possibilities. i think it would be wrong to say that the possibilities would be infinite in general for few reasons, for example, possibility is always subjective, whether something is possible or not, only depends on the circumstances and potentials of the thing. but saying that possibilities are finite would also be false(unless we exclude time and only view some specific particle), since its not known how universe works in longer time periods, whether at one time it collapses and does all the same things again, or does different things after collapsing, whether it just continues etc.
    now when it comes to possibilities, we often think about what is possible in the larger scale, in our world, which is built from multiple particles and about possibilities of how these particles or masses of particles can interact. this sort of possibilities i see being a big part of this illusion of choice by will.

    5. other things i cant be arsed to think right now.

    now to the illusion of choice by will. this is always about the choice from different possibilities, your will is what chooses one over another. but if you look into this deeper, you need to ask the question "why did i favor this over that?". basic answer to the question is that its because of your neural connections, which developed in certain ways due to your genetic make-up, which was controlled by the environment. naturally your past choices plays a big role here, but if you made your past choices because of genes controlled by environment, you cant really use it in this, because its part of the whole "neural connections developed in certain ways due to your genetic make-up, which was controlled by the environment" thing. so if the thing(will) you use to manipulate the world around you is just a part of it, how does your will that chooses one over another is different from water that chooses to go one path over another? in my opinion, your will is fully controlled by things outside of your awareness, but because you are not aware of these things controlling it, you get the illusion of choice by will and free will.

    i could go on about this forever, but i think thats enough for now



    Quote Originally Posted by Valiant View Post
    First off: READ THIS. It is paramount for your thoughts and words on the matter. Don't worry, it's very interesting.

    Our world may be a giant hologram - space - 15 January 2009 - New Scientist


    The thoughts it brings to mind are quite scary. If reality is just a projection of what goes on at the edges of the ever-expanding universe...
    Then one could argue that everything is predetermined.
    Thus fate could quite possibly be something real.
    Or God. Whatever anyone would wish to call it.
    There are several possibilities.
    I cannot rationally discard the possibility of something greater controlling
    every last tiny detail after having read and pondered this matter.

    I would like your thoughts on this matter. This will probably give me Peguy-points ().
    i cant see the whole article, but the stuff i could read i cant see the relevance to what you are talking. the article is about a machine made to measure gravity waves of far away objects.

    however, it is a well known fact that we cant observe everything and the things we do observe are just impressions which our brains have through our sensory neurons. since our sensory neurons simple send a message to other parts of brains, which classify the stimuli according to the past experiences, therefore i think its fair to call our perceived reality a projection.

    i do think that everything is predetermined(read the free will and choice stuff on earlier this post), but we cant predict things accurately enough to tell what the fate is, everything we predict are just likely possibilities and further you try to predict something, less likely it is that you get it right, since the possibilities become possibilities of possibilities lowering the certainty.

    i dont see this being something larger controlling us, its not about control to me, its just about the 'everything that can happen does happen' thing.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

    Read

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    how do you manipulate the nature with your will, when your will is just another construct of nature and all the things your will makes are dependent of your nurture and nature?

    i used to think that yea, because i can choose one over another, i am somehow outside of nature(which just does what it does without thinking it). but when you think about it in deeper level; "what made you choose this over that?", you naturally come to the question of will, but why your will wants to do what it wants to do?

    i think there is basically one rule to everything in the universe, 'everything that can happen, does happen', the path of least resistance is naturally a part of this. since the thing with least resistance is the one that does happen and since it has taken this certain path, it cant simultaneously be on another path, therefore one is excluded over another one. naturally we could talk about quantum physics, but i dont see that as being relevant to the physics which our brains obey.

    illusion of choice is what makes human mind seem detached from rest of the nature, or to be more precise, its the complexity of human mind that builds the illusion of choice, thus only seemingly removing us from rest of the nature.

    i dont think humans are capable of creating new laws, even if the whole idea is that there is no strict laws, its not laws that we create, its just patterns that we observe and theorize, which we werent aware of before.

    talking about how laws of the universe work, we must include the laws by which our mind works, since our mind is just a parts of nature of the universe. i like to view this topic according to the same one rule that applies to everything else in the nature, which i think is good to separate into few pieces;

    1. law of exclusion, if something happens because of some particular thing in one moment, it excludes something else that the same thing might had done in the same moment.

    2. path of least resistance, everything that happens in the law of exclusion, happens because that particular thing at that particular moment had least resistance towards the path of action it took.

    3. everything moves all the time. even tho its not always clear to observer that something is moving, it doesent mean that its still, but just tells about the limits of our observation. when it comes to matter, its just energy moving, not towards something, but the essence of matter is that its just energy moving in loops, instead of moving towards observed direction, thus creating gravity force and other forces of nature that we can observe.

    4. possibilities. i think it would be wrong to say that the possibilities would be infinite in general for few reasons, for example, possibility is always subjective, whether something is possible or not, only depends on the circumstances and potentials of the thing. but saying that possibilities are finite would also be false(unless we exclude time and only view some specific particle), since its not known how universe works in longer time periods, whether at one time it collapses and does all the same things again, or does different things after collapsing, whether it just continues etc.
    now when it comes to possibilities, we often think about what is possible in the larger scale, in our world, which is built from multiple particles and about possibilities of how these particles or masses of particles can interact. this sort of possibilities i see being a big part of this illusion of choice by will.

    5. other things i cant be arsed to think right now.

    now to the illusion of choice by will. this is always about the choice from different possibilities, your will is what chooses one over another. but if you look into this deeper, you need to ask the question "why did i favor this over that?". basic answer to the question is that its because of your neural connections, which developed in certain ways due to your genetic make-up, which was controlled by the environment. naturally your past choices plays a big role here, but if you made your past choices because of genes controlled by environment, you cant really use it in this, because its part of the whole "neural connections developed in certain ways due to your genetic make-up, which was controlled by the environment" thing. so if the thing(will) you use to manipulate the world around you is just a part of it, how does your will that chooses one over another is different from water that chooses to go one path over another? in my opinion, your will is fully controlled by things outside of your awareness, but because you are not aware of these things controlling it, you get the illusion of choice by will and free will.

    i could go on about this forever, but i think thats enough for now
    I liked your free will and natural law analysis, and it sounded a lot like a guy named Spinoza, although I'm not sure I agree with his philosophy of cosmic harmony and balance rather than control over chaos.

  3. #13

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    This reminds me of Boethius' The Consolation of Philosophy!
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  4. #14
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    This reminds me of Boethius' The Consolation of Philosophy!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #15
    Senior Member Munchies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    If our lives are predetermined, than it doesn't really matter what we think, eh?
    Well it would matter since it is happening and which means he's already determined to do so
    1+1=3 OMFG

  6. #16
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    I wonder if this isn't effectively the same as the 'block universe' that I learned about before physics terminology got sexy.

  7. #17
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    [YOUTUBE="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTJ7AzBIJoI&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTJ7AzBIJoI&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]
    INtp
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  8. #18
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    This kind of theology is quite possible the most dangerous one out there. I'd rather have people believe in religious scriptures that at the very least guides the masses towards a certain collective morality, rather than believing in something that inherently removes them from any sense of guided or set morality, leaving them to completely create their own sets of standards and morals with all its consequences.

    At least atheists in general do treat people as equals and of great value as they value themselves, resulting more often than not in a decent set of morals and values rivaling, if not besting that of most religions. But in this theology, there is no value, and thus, there is no reason for morals or values.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  9. #19
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    In the USA we can believe what we want.

    We don't believe what is true.

    And Hologram Theory is the perfect example.

  10. #20
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Even if life is predetermined, we'll never be able to settle on that as being fact. So, what does it really matter?

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