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Thread: Predictability

  1. #31
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IEE623 View Post
    I feel blahhh when anything reaches the point of being predictable.

    But when I come to think of it, it's a nature of human (you know I'm generalizing) to be afraid of uncertainties. I believe Science was born out of that notion - to minimize variability, and raise the predictability level. Systems, structures, hierarchies, etc. came along to serve that purpose as well. The more mysterious or uncertain things are, the more we want to discover and straighten them out. We are subconsciously attracted to the mysteriousness, while at the same time consciously desire to make the mysterious no more mysterious. Those moments of our own discoveries give us intellectual orgasm. But after thousands of years of civilization, there are not that many mysteries out there to give us that kind of ecstasy. Instead, we get stuck in our own products of those intellectual orgasms :P Now we are all in the SOCIETY haha...

    "Congratulations you just made the right choice. You are now boxed! Everything is in the reach of your hand, and no more worries about what you cannot control. Please follow our guidelines step by step in the most civilized manner. We guarantee happiness will come your way!” - signed The Society, with alpha of .05 or 95% Confidence Interval

    Most of us chase after things that make ourselves so predictable, in the illusion that we’ll find happiness. I don’t know if I should be happy or depressed knowing it.

    P.S. About the mysteries, we are now reaching out and trying to "de-mysterize" the outer space. Isn’t it cool heh?
    For me it is very plain - I like things to be predicable on the outside, so I can explore the new on the inside.

    I like the trains to run on time, but I like to put my feet up in the carriage and let my mind run free.

    I like the chaotic to be tamed and ordered so that I am free to create.

    I start every day with breakfast in the Bakery but then I allow myself to do just as I wish.

    And as important as order and creativity are, I find myself drawn to presence.

    Presence is slightly mysterious for me - I don't know what it is - but I recognise it when it occurs.

    And I am starting to distinguish between a phoney presence and a real presence.

    And how extraordinary is the doctrine of the Real Presence - quite unbelievable.

  2. #32
    Senior Member IEE623's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    I think the common "(Un)predictability is (un)comfortable" idea doesn't hold much water. So, you feel comfortable in unpredictable situations? That's great. I'm sure you can all tell me about that great time you had when your car unpredictably broke down during a roadtrip. The point is that unpredictability can not simply be equated to comfort, or vice versa. Predictability is only preferable in that it's a reliable way of minimizing potential discomfort, and we all try to minimize potential discomfort -- you say you're a risk taker? But you're never going to risk everything. Basically, what I'm trying to say is: even for you (apparently) free-spirited ENP types, I daresay that you'll find unpredictability comfortable only when there's a good chance it wont't piss you off -- that is, only when it suits your purposes. And I'm pretty sure everyone can do that, which is why this basic "predictability = boring" argument needs to be scrutinized.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    Yawn. For starters, how did you reach the conclusion that my response was "conditioned reflexes?" How would you describe the "way I reacted to the post"? Lastly, don't you realize that making light of the post/poster you're responding to isn't quite the epitome of constructivity?

    I suppose I'll be blunt: Compare our two posts and I think it'll be easy to see that yours is much more about "conditioned reflexes", and that the way you reacted to my post is much more questionable than vice versa.

    And no, I'm not watching anything simply because you're riding some "rotflol, you made my day!" wave that's apparently supposed to make me realize my error without you making any point whatsoever
    LoL 'Cuz you started your argument with your argumentative nature without really examined what I was trying to say. Sorry it's just my loving nature made me laugh. Thats all.

    Did you just get caught up with what other people's postings without really remembering what the thread starter trying to say? If so you should've quoted them. Without quoting, you directed your "this basic predictability = boring argument needs to be scrutinized" at me. Your bad.

    Did I say "(un)predictability is (un)comfortable"? Did I ever put the 2 words in the same sentence throughout the whole thread? You failed right at the beginning to start it with your false pre-assumed thesis with me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nadir View Post
    That's possible (and please note that I haven't called any preference "right" or "wrong"). I suppose what I'm wondering is whether people are really consistent in thinking "the highest stress scenario for an ENP is scheduled routine and limited possibilities for dynamic change." -- to me that looks like a statement (echoed by most ENP descriptions) that needs some reasonable justification. Now you could say something like: "Well it's just my tendency, and I do feel uncomfortable..." and I would ask, "How and why?" and you might direct me to a type description or analysis again. This is the problem I have with MBTI (not necessarily Jung's system) -- it has a lot of confirmation bias going on within it.
    right there! You started your previous argument with a "conditioned reflex" (sry, i'd just love to use those words instead of "prejudice" lol) against ENPs due to your negative experiences.

    To already have Jung's system integrated in your knowledge, you should've been more open to differences. You approach people with your point of view and ask them to persuade you, instead of approaching people with an inquisitive mind and learn from them.

    Have you known about neurology and cognitive functions? Can I say my brain primarily use those neurons in that part of the brain and your brain primarily uses those neurons in the other part of the brain????? Even you can't accept that can you?
    It's whole complicated science and you expected those ppl you asked to explain to you "how and why" ????

    It's complicated because it's just hard right at the start using human mind to examine how human mind works. Fortunately not all minds are exactly the same. That's why we need open-minded scientists to spot out differences and study them, instead of scientist that relate differences to neurosis

    Read books about all the research and discover a possible explanation to those characteristics of Ne for yourself heh?!

    On the other hand, I think we should be wary about making statements like "We should probably acknowledge that most others like predictability." -- well that's really an assumption, and serves only to further your own argument in a biased way. Also, regarding the "breakdown stories thread", that's kind of my point: ENPs wouldn't be the only ones who'd post in there, and how are you going to prove that they are even going to be in the majority? and I basically guarantee (out of my ass, no less) you that while there might be awesome breakdown stories, there would also be plenty that weren't as awesome (i.e downright crappy and angering) and those wouldn't be shared.
    I think you just preferred to assume whatever others said is "absolute" to them. Nothing we said is absolute (it's our tendency, we're open to variability. oh, did the words "our tendency" just piss you off again?)
    To your amusement, we did have "downright crappy and angering" breakdown stories. It came from other riders because we looked like we didn't have a care in the world while they started worrying. It just irritated people somehow. *shrug
    "Adversity makes men, and prosperity makes monsters"

  3. #33
    Enigma Nadir's Avatar
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    That's more like it! Bring it on!

    Quote Originally Posted by IEE623 View Post
    LoL 'Cuz you started your argument with your argumentative nature without really examined what I was trying to say. Sorry it's just my loving nature made me laugh. Thats all.

    Did you just get caught up with what other people's postings without really remembering what the thread starter trying to say? If so you should've quoted them. Without quoting, you directed your "this basic predictability = boring argument needs to be scrutinized" at me. Your bad.

    Did I say "(un)predictability is (un)comfortable"? Did I ever put the 2 words in the same sentence throughout the whole thread? You failed right at the beginning to start it with your false pre-assumed thesis with me.
    1) Okay. It should be said that I wasn't actually examining what you were trying to say however, given how objective and biased MBTI-related discourse usually is. Which brings me to --
    2 and 3) Why are you assuming that I directed my post at you and only you as the original poster? I was simply airing my own ideas. There is a reason I didn't quote any of you. The other poster responded to them pretty constructively. You aren't doing the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by IEE623
    right there! You started your previous argument with a "conditioned reflex" (sry, i'd just love to use those words instead of "prejudice" lol) against ENPs due to your negative experiences.
    Please, assume more. I'll be brief: No. One of my closest friends is an ENTP and my knowing him so well is why I voiced my own thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by IEE623
    To already have Jung's system integrated in your knowledge, you should've been more open to differences. You approach people with your point of view and ask them to persuade you, instead of approaching people with an inquisitive mind and learn from them.

    Have you known about neurology and cognitive functions? Can I say my brain primarily use those neurons in that part of the brain and your brain primarily uses those neurons in the other part of the brain????? Even you can't accept that can you?
    It's whole complicated science and you expected those ppl you asked to explain to you "how and why" ????
    1) I think that's only what you're seeing.
    2) Trust me, I know. You might want to read my older posts back when I used to frequent this place, or ask around, instead of going on a Ne overdrive and making wrong assumptions about my knowledge based solely on this single, and apparently abrasive post you've happened to read.

    And who are you to tell me about the limits of my acceptance? You don't know anything! I know you're enjoying it, as much as I'm enjoying typing this to you, but please, curb the sensationalism. It doesn't work on me.

    Quote Originally Posted by IEE623
    It's complicated because it's just hard right at the start using human mind to examine how human mind works. Fortunately not all minds are exactly the same. That's why we need open-minded scientists to spot out differences and study them, instead of scientist that relate differences to neurosis

    Read books about all the research and discover a possible explanation to those characteristics of Ne for yourself heh?!
    -_-. See all of the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by IEE623
    I think you just preferred to assume whatever others said is "absolute" to them. Nothing we said is absolute (it's our tendency, we're open to variability. oh, did the words "our tendency" just piss you off again?)
    To your amusement, we did have "downright crappy and angering" breakdown stories. It came from other riders because we looked like we didn't have a care in the world while they started worrying. It just irritated people somehow. *shrug
    I think you're mistaken and I think you have a much higher propensity to assume than I do. You didn't piss me off, you aren't pissing me off now, and I have no idea how the thing you said relates to my amusement in any way. I'll tell you what amused me, though, in a sportsmanship sort of way: responding to this post, just as you amused yourself while responding to mine.

    I'm done with you, though. Feel free to respond to this, as I'm sure you will -- it's fun!
    Not really.

  4. #34
    Senior Member IEE623's Avatar
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    I was simply airing my own ideas. There is a reason I didn't quote any of you. The other poster responded to them pretty constructively. You aren't doing the same.
    Alright, I’m going to stray off the path here to argue with you, since somebody strayed off the main argument of my thread in the first place.

    Heh?..... Constructiveness depends on the way you perceive an argument. You just imposed your definition of “constructive” on me sir/ma’am whatever. All the arguments are constructive to the stimulation or even development of the debaters’ brains. That’s how I see it

    Anyway, I won’t impose my own definition on you. I’ll try to use common sense (which I usually suck at, but who cares anyway). To describe something “constructive,” you need a base for it first. I’m just gonna say the argument is the base here. You think your first post is constructive to the argument by deviate it to type-related criticism? To argue based on types is never constructive to ideals/ideas in the first place.

    One of my closest friends is an ENTP
    Having a closest friend an ENTP doesn’t make you “not having negative experiences with ENTP”

    I think that's only what you're seeing.
    I could use that phrase to every post you post too.

    And who are you to tell me about the limits of my acceptance? You don't know anything! I know you're enjoying it, as much as I'm enjoying typing this to you, but please, curb the sensationalism. It doesn't work on me.
    oh did i tell you about the limits of your acceptance? i didn't see it. but if its really so, my bad.

    Trust me, I know. You might want to read my older posts back when I used to frequent this place, or ask around, instead of going on a Ne overdrive and making wrong assumptions about my knowledge based solely on this single, and apparently abrasive post you've happened to read.
    You describe your post as “abrasive”? It was so much “constructive” But you just admitted that you started out flaw.

    My answer to your first post might not be constructive (normal sense) to my thread, but it is pretty constructive to your “abrasive” post.

    I'm done with you, though. Feel free to respond to this, as I'm sure you will -- it's fun!
    yeah, same to you!
    "Adversity makes men, and prosperity makes monsters"

  5. #35
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    ??lq????p??d s? ?? ?u??o? ?? s??s uos??d ?uo ?luo ?? ??u??o? ?? s??s ?poqou ?? ?lq????p??dun ?luo s? ?u?????oS

  6. #36
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    I think that what propositions need to be cognitively resolved (or in other words, what needs to be predictably controlled in the MIND) is somewhat dependant upon type... we see this plainly and clearly with SJs imo! NTs refute the belief that the creation of God is undiscernable and make foundations of science to find the predictability in nature.... and so on.... Mayhaps NFs need the notion that they can predictably read or scout another's emotional state? I dunno, what do you really NEED to be predictable?

    I need my fast food predictable. Bic Macs 4 life, dawg!

  7. #37
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    I need my fast food predictable. Bic Macs 4 life, dawg!
    (: ??lq????p??d ?q o? ????s?p s?u??? ??os

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    ??lq????p??d ?q o? ????s?p s?u??? ??os
    Fixed.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
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  9. #39
    Member Gengar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IEE623 View Post
    I feel blahhh when anything reaches the point of being predictable.

    But when I come to think of it, it's a nature of human (you know I'm generalizing) to be afraid of uncertainties. I believe Science was born out of that notion - to minimize variability, and raise the predictability level. Systems, structures, hierarchies, etc. came along to serve that purpose as well. The more mysterious or uncertain things are, the more we want to discover and straighten them out. We are subconsciously attracted to the mysteriousness, while at the same time consciously desire to make the mysterious no more mysterious.
    I sometimes confuse this - but isn't it more statistics that raise predictability level?

    To be more specific, it should be Probability. Against the Gods is a good book to use for discussion here. It mainly talks about how probability and maths gave humans the power to look forward to their own future without leaving it to 'God's will'. The book kind of makes sense; before 1500s and renaissance and finding out the earth was not the center of the universe, the future was left in 'god's hands'. Think back to the Ancient Greeks and their idea of inevitability. I think most (if not all) civilisations were based upon the idea of a divine supernatural being. Even in the situations where we have monarchy; people did what they were told by the emperor because he is the 'descendant from heaven' (not true of all cultures, but certainly for Chinese and Japanese).

    So back to the topic, predictability in this sense, has given us the ability to be forward moving. Our future is in our own hands. In the course of psychology and economics, people have even tried to predict other people's behaviour. Type is one form of this. I can't say it's completely accurate, but it's a nice generalization that seems to work relatively well.

    (sorry if I'm off topic. I clicked 'reply' on the first page, and I didn't really see where the 'argument' led to)

  10. #40
    Member lookingglassworld's Avatar
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    Cool

    Predictability to me is like watching paint dry. Boredom is slow death. Change is what life is all about. No change,no growth. (my experience anyway!!)
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