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Obscenity

Mole

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Except for the voices you consider to be obscene...right. Freedom of speech is great until the speech is something that offends you personally. Got it.

Of course I do support free speech.

However there is no such thing as unlimited free speech.

Free speech is limited by the criminal law and civil law.

And our Courts and yours are asked periodically to decide what the limits are.

And one limit is what the ordinary person would consider obscene.

For instance you are not free to express sexual obscenity on this site, but you are free to promote the private ownership of weapons designed for violence. And which are used regularly in your country to commit mass murder against your own people.

This seems to be anomalous.

We read about it in our newspapers, and see it on our television. But we have stopped mass murder here, and we wonder why you haven't done the same there.

But the answer lies in this very site - you openly promote weapons of mass murder.
 

MacGuffin

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I’m not sure what you mean by “nice try.” If Edgar made that up- that he got suspended for posting Lindsey Lohan with I CAME underneath - you should have already called him on it instead of me. Since you didn’t, I assume it was true.

I haven’t been here that long and even I can see that this board’s as cliquey as a junior high lunchroom. I wonder if everyone on here would get suspended for something like that.

Maybe you should be less gullible.
 

heart

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But I guess it’s not that surprising on a site where you get tarred for criticizing Rush Limbaugh.

I didn't see anyone get tarred specifically for criticizing Limbaugh. I did see a political debate spring from the issues raised in that thread and it had very little to do with Limbaugh. Did I miss some posts there? :huh:
 

Kangirl

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Except for the voices you consider to be obscene...right. Freedom of speech is great until the speech is something that offends you personally. Got it.

:yes:

...

Mysterio - people are going to disagree here, sometimes strongly. It doesn't mean you're being 'tarred'.
 

simulatedworld

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Of course I do support free speech.

However there is no such thing as unlimited free speech.

Free speech is limited by the criminal law and civil law.

And our Courts and yours are asked periodically to decide what the limits are.

And one limit is what the ordinary person would consider obscene.

For instance you are not free to express sexual obscenity on this site, but you are free to promote the private ownership of weapons designed for violence. And which are used regularly in your country to commit mass murder against your own people.

This seems to be anomalous.

We read about it in our newspapers, and see it on our television. But we have stopped mass murder here, and we wonder why you haven't done the same there.

But the answer lies in this very site - you openly promote weapons of mass murder.

No, the limits aren't typically based on obscenity. The limits aren't imposed arbitrarily; they're imposed based on whether the free speech compromises some other right to an unacceptable level.

In my country, for instance, you can't advocate the violent overthrow of the government or openly threaten the President. These are reasonable national security concerns. You can't yell "FIRE!" in a theater when there is no fire, because you are jeopardizing that theater's right to conduct business, for no good reason. You can't make unsubstantiated negative claims about someone if such claims stand to jeopardize that person's career--note that the reasoning here is not, "Slander is obscene"; it's "Slander threatens a person's right to make a living." The key here is that the statements must be threatening to the person's career--that's an overriding concern and it's unrelated to arbitrary conceptions of obscenity.

But obscenity laws, by and large, are struck down in the United States. There's a reason Antonin Scalia's "I know it when I see it" obscenity test is often cited as a joke in order to illustrate the absurdly arbitrary nature of such laws.

And guns are only weapons of mass murder in the hands of unbalanced individuals. I'm sure you've heard the following argument, but I am interested in hearing your response to it:

Premise 1) The black market is an inevitable consequence of free society. There is no way to prevent black market gun sales without vastly restricting civil rights to the point of total impracticality, a la 1984.

Premise 2) People who don't care about laws saying you can't kill people obviously don't care about laws saying that you can't own a gun.

Conclusion 1) People who are determined to commit violent crimes with guns will obtain guns illegally no matter what the law says about them.

Premise 3) Laws against guns do prevent normal, law-abiding citizens from having guns.

Premise 4) Guns can be used for a positive purpose, personal protection, by mentally stable, healthy, law-abiding citizens. They also provide a deterrent for crime because criminals can never really be sure which potential victims have guns and which ones don't.

Conclusion 2) Gun prohibition laws do more harm to normal, law-abiding citizens than to violent criminals.


I mean, I'm appalled when I hear about violent crime too, but you must understand that occasional violent crime is an inevitable consequence of free society. There will always be a small percentage of people who are mentally unstable, and removing guns doesn't stop them from taking out that mental instability in the form of violence against others. In the wrong hands, a box cutter is a weapon of mass murder. That doesn't make it reasonable to outlaw all box cutters for everyone.

We must draw the line somewhere based on how much damage that mentally unstable person can do before being stopped. We don't allow the average citizen to own nuclear arms, because in the hands of an unstable person, they could annihilate half the world's population.

Similarly, I don't believe we should allow the average citizen to own tanks or rocket launchers or assault weapons with much greater capacity for destruction than is necessary for personal protection. But I do think that ownership of small, non-automatic, bullet-firing personal firearms is both a constitutional right and a necessity in order to allow citizens to protect themselves and their families from violent crime.

The sad fact of the matter is, within the framework of an essentially unsupervised democratic society, guns are never, ever going away, no matter how much legislation you place on them. That's life.

And furthermore, suggesting that even images of guns are somehow obscene/should be legally prohibited is absolutely ludicrous. Regardless of your position on gun control, that's taking it way too far.
 

BlackCat

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Guns are fine, the people that kill other people with guns aren't fine. That's like saying food is bad because the idiots that eat too much get fat.
 

simulatedworld

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They can't?

Nope. You can suggest that the current government is corrupt or deserves to be overthrown, but if you actually attempt to organize a plot to violently overthrow it, it's called treason.
 

simulatedworld

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The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Since we have banned guns here, we have had not one gun massacre.

Correlation doesn't prove causation. There are a lot of reasons that gun violence is so prominent in the US; I think most of it has to do with the way our media is designed to incite fear and intolerance.

Not to mention there are about 14x as many people in the US (approx. 300 million) as in Australia (approx. 22 million.)

As for violent crime in Australia, though...check the numbers. There may be less gun violence, but that doesn't mean violent people aren't still finding a way to commit violent crimes:

Crime up Down Under

Since Australia's 1996 banning of firearms, armed robberies have increased 45%. If your aim is to reduce violent crime, you don't seem to have done much--you may have reduced violent crime involving guns, but how does that really help if violent crime in general in your country is on the rise?

Some more statistics:

Though lawmakers responsible for passing the ban promised a safer country, the nation's crime statistics tell a different story:

* Countrywide, homicides are up 3.2 percent;

* Assaults are up 8.6 percent;

* Amazingly, armed robberies have climbed nearly 45 percent;

* In the Australian state of Victoria, gun homicides have climbed 300 percent;

* In the 25 years before the gun bans, crime in Australia had been dropping steadily;

* There has been a reported "dramatic increase" in home burglaries and assaults on the elderly.



And my favorite:

Since the ban has been in effect, membership in the Australian Sporting Shooters Association has climbed to about 112,000 -- a 200 percent increase.

And you think you've decreased national interest in gun ownership?
 

MacGuffin

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Nope. You can suggest that the current government is corrupt or deserves to be overthrown, but if you actually attempt to organize a plot to violently overthrow it, it's called treason.

Well that's a different subject.

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."
-"The Constitution of the United States," Article 3, Section 3.
 

simulatedworld

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Well that's a different subject.

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."
-"The Constitution of the United States," Article 3, Section 3.

I see. I guess I have misunderstood the definition of treason.

Still, start a website to recruit people for a violent revolt against the government and see how quickly Uncle Sam shows up at your door.
 

simulatedworld

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A note for Victor:

I am not implying that the banning of firearms has directly caused these increases in crime. Many, many factors are involved, and correlation, as I noted above, does not prove causation. But it's apparent that the intended effect of such legislation is not actually happening. Surely we should try a different approach?
 

MacGuffin

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I see. I guess I have misunderstood the definition of treason.

Still, start a website to recruit people for a violent revolt against the government and see how quickly Uncle Sam shows up at your door.

Oh, they may show up. They'll need something more than "speech" however, to make their case.
 

simulatedworld

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Oh, they may show up. They'll need something more than "speech" however, to make their case.

Wouldn't it depend on the exact manner of the speech? If the speech were simply, "Man I am sick of the government and I think it needs to be overthrown!", probably you would be fine...but if the speech were, "I'm going to kill the President at x date and time", with appropriate supporting details, would that not be illegal?

A friend of mine knew someone in college who got drunk and called the White House, and asked to speak to the President. When told that would be impossible, the drunken idiot said, "Whatever, he'll probably be dead by morning anyway..." and in 20 minutes the FBI was raiding his apartment. For the next year, there was a black government car sitting outside, until Uncle Sam was convinced the kid wasn't really going to try anything.

I'm not sure if he was actually charged with a crime, but from what I understand, the government takes that shit pretty seriously.
 
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