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  1. #1
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Default Scientific Racism & Racial Theory

    I'm aware of the extreme sensitivity and taboo surrounding this subject, but I'm fascinated by it, and thought that this would be the ideal place to bring up such a subject, since I'm surrounded by open-minded people. If your only response is "oh my god, you racist", or something similar, then I politely ask you to fuck off.

    I'm going to expound upon my current view, which is a kind of brainstorm or mish mash of ideas, and which is totally open to both constructive criticism and a total change. I see myself as an advocate of objective fact, and so if my thinking is not factual, I'd like to know about it. Now, to clarify, I'm a fence-sitter at the moment, for lack of evidence. However, I am seeing two possible alternatives at the moment, and I'd like to see some evidence before I adopt the more racially-orientated viewpoint. You might at this point be looking at the computer screen with complete disgust or bafflement at my choice of words, but consider what I'm talking about and please, respond accordingly. I'm not writing to get trounced by hate mail and bad words from everyone on the board. I'm writing to gain a more appreciative understanding of the world. Nothing I say will lead me to change the way I act or speak towards people.

    The subject I'm most interested in is race and intelligence. I want to know whether or not there is (even a rough) correlation between race and intelligence. I read about comments made by James Watson, a distinguished scientist, a few months ago. The first obstacle encountered is to get past all the moronically subjective and fabricated crap various people have attributed to the scientist as having said. The second obstacle is deciding whether or not his comments are true or not - is there actually a correlation between race and intelligence?

    Firstly, I need to define what I understand to be race. A lot of people (including me) see "race" as being "the human race" - that is every human being. However, another view which I see as perfectly legitimate is the view that there are different races within humankind. When people like Watson use "race", they are talking about whites, blacks, browns and yellows, and this is what I'm interested in. Another view, propounded by my housemate (who is a scientist (albeit a chemist rather than a biologist, which his father is)), is that there is a single human race, but that black people are less evolved than other types of people (I will call them "races" for simplicity's sake). This is, according to him, because black people are biologically closer to apes (from which every human being evolved) than other races. Think about the logic of this: apes -> black people -> white people. He backs this claim up by explaining that Africans cannot rule themselves, and are better with white rule e.g. Zimbabwe, Somalia, Sudan, Sierra Leone and so on and so forth. I realise that this looks backed up by irrational prejudice (and indeed I do think it is, and he actually recognises that it is), but I do think he has a valid point which needs to be properly challenged instead of just being dumped in the bin. Now, I have a few problems with this which I shall outline.

    Firstly, it is quite possible (although not necessarily true, unless someone could perhaps show me evidence to suggest that it is), that the human race evolves as one, and that there are no sub-races which evolve slower (such as black people) or quicker (such as white people). In this case, skin colour does not determine intelligence, but is rather due to melanin content in the skin. That is, if I and a collection of other white people moved into Africa into a colony and remained there, our ancestors would become black people over a long period of time. (If you disagree, by the way, you're going to have to dismiss the melanin argument - which is my main argument - and come up with a better one (please do so, I really want to hear more opinions on this issue)).

    My second issue is twofold; the first part is that there are some external phenomena which means the Africans would have a problem ruling themselves, as well as a problem with evolving societally. Colonial exploitation has led to societal chaos within various African tribes in some cases (black slavery), as well as loss of natural and valuable resources in others. Moreover, introducing a political system (in this case whatever was at the time the predominant system in Europe) which does not take into account the natural progression of civilisation, can damage a country long-term. The second part involves a straight-off refutation of his view, by appeal to certain countries which run counter to this idea. Ignoring the north African countries (which are generally run by brown as opposed to black people), countries such as Botswana and Gabon have made progress - compare their ever-expanding GDPs of $15,800 (it was $14,300 in 2007) and $14,900 respectively with Zimbabwe's GDP per capita of $200. I'm sure there are other countries in Africa just like Botswana and Gabon, but for lack of research, I can't refer to them.

    So, back to race theory. What do you make of it, and of what I've said?

  2. #2
    Senor Membrane
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    Hmmm... Well, if there are statistical differences between the IQs of different races, I'd suppose that most of it is because they have been raised in a different culture. I don't really know anything about these theories and it must be quite hard to find much cold-headed research about this. Most of it is just people wanting desperately to prove they are better than the others. Anyhow... I don't see that it is completely impossible that there are some differences between the brains of people that have been living in a very different climate and maybe even have been using their brains differently. Still, it seems more likely that the IQ scoring differences are because they are not as educated in Africa.

    EDIT: And, about the "ape > black > white" theory... It's just silly. Does your friend think that they just stopped evolving at all because their skin color hasn't changed much?

  3. #3
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    The three great strategies for obscuring an issue are to introduce irrelevancies, to arouse prejudice, and to excite ridicule.... ---Bergen Evans, The Natural History of Nonsense

    Since you've done all three it's not worth my time to refute your hypothesis or assumptions. Read this.

  4. #4
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    Since you've done all three it's not worth my time to refute your hypothesis or assumptions. Read this.
    Agreed.

    Also, you'll need a broad understanding of the cumulative effect of the flynn effect, education and cultural biases in the measuring instruments before you can get even the remotest idea of how complex this question is in reality.

  5. #5
    WTF is this dude saying? A Schnitzel's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what you've heard about the IQ, but I'll shed some light for you. IQ isn't entirely innate. People learn how to think. If this wasn't the case american schools would be wasting billions in tax payer dollars.

    Anyone who thinks a small statistical IQ difference has anything to do with whether people can rule themselves or not should be shot for poor usage of logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    sheesh humans! for realz

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    The three great strategies for obscuring an issue are to introduce irrelevancies, to arouse prejudice, and to excite ridicule.... ---Bergen Evans, The Natural History of Nonsense

    Since you've done all three it's not worth my time to refute your hypothesis or assumptions. Read this.
    Word.


    Also: AAA Statement on "Race"

  7. #7
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Race theory has a hard row to hoe ever since the, "Origin of Species", and the discovery of the structure of DNA by Watson and Crick.

    We are exquisitely related through our genes, not only with each other but with each living thing.

    The genetic structure of life on Earth is exquisitely beautiful and true.

    While the theory of race is an ugly lie.

    And to understand the relations of people on Earth we need to look not much further than history.

    But revolutionary cultures tend to dismiss history, and look to the future. And in the process make it difficult to know where they have come from and their place in the world.

    And not knowing themselves they seize upon any dodgy theory to give meaning to their lives, such as race theory or MBTI.

    And indeed race theory and MBTI are intimately related.

    MBTI is plagerised from the book, "Personality Types".

    And, "Personality Types", was written to complement the theory of somatic types.

    And as you know the theory of somatic types divides us into Aryans, Jews, Slavs, Asians and Negroes.

    And the theory of somatic types got lost in WW II but MBTI survived and thrived.

    And although today it is embarrassing to be called a racist, it it not embarrassing to be a follower of MBTI.

    MBTI is a fig leaf for racism.

  8. #8
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nolla View Post
    Still, it seems more likely that the IQ scoring differences are because they are not as educated in Africa.
    Which would introduce the question of why they are not as educated in Africa.

    EDIT: And, about the "ape > black > white" theory... It's just silly. Does your friend think that they just stopped evolving at all because their skin color hasn't changed much?
    Yes, essentially.

    Quote Originally Posted by pippi View Post
    The three great strategies for obscuring an issue are to introduce irrelevancies, to arouse prejudice, and to excite ridicule.... ---Bergen Evans, The Natural History of Nonsense

    Since you've done all three it's not worth my time to refute your hypothesis or assumptions.
    Since you used the words "refutation", "hypothesis" and "assumption" in conjunction with your referring to what I have written, it's clear that you didn't read what I wrote.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Agreed.
    Likewise.

    Read this.
    I read that, and what I see is a whirlwind of different opinions, none of which is remotely conclusive. What's your point? In fact, why are we even talking about IQ? I certainly didn't introduce the notion.

    Also, you'll need a broad understanding of the cumulative effect of the flynn effect, education and cultural biases in the measuring instruments before you can get even the remotest idea of how complex this question is in reality.
    What question?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Schnitzel View Post
    I'm not sure what you've heard about the IQ, but I'll shed some light for you. IQ isn't entirely innate. People learn how to think. If this wasn't the case american schools would be wasting billions in tax payer dollars.
    Again, I didn't mention IQ.

  9. #9
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Interestingly enough, I think this topic has a lot to do with the division of human temperments and why we see temperment numbers skewed in different populations

  10. #10
    Senior Member professor goodstain's Avatar
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    Not so much pure white gringos but more or less indoeuropean genetics. Indoeuropeans can no longer oppress those of color, so what do they oppress instaid, every damn thing else. Example-peta, they are now protesting dog shows and hoarse drawn carriages. Thus giving one less purpose for dogs and hoarses, and putting them on more of a fast track to extinction. And we all know peta is almost exclusively white. You see, it's in the language. Ts will relate to that a bit more than Fs. Do we not think to some extent in language? Problem is that the language those with tendancies of oppression is always indoeuropean. Indoeuropean is the newest of all language classes. Thus being the most half ass, naive and adolescent. Those on the side of disregarding all this as junk, do not know an ancient language and their indoeuro thought patern will emmediately scorn my spelling ability. And transparently white. or rather gringo. or rather indo. Obviously giving us an arrogant way of calling someone stupid (indo).
    Those who are not of indoeuro decent keep reminance of their ancient language in their genetic wiring. So, you see, they ASIST in the evolvement of indoeuro english via what gringos call ebonics. Teach ebonics in school?---Straight.

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