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  1. #1
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Default Why Prayer is a SIN and affront to God

    I'm sick and tired of these weak ass spirituality threads and reading about why "an NT would [consider] God". No offense but these discussions are for intellectual infants that can't grasp such a concept as beautiful as God (I blame lack of mathematics and philosophy training myself), so I want to post something that's really been itching the fuck out of me lately: Prayer.

    Synthetical Hypothesis begins:

    - God exists and prescribes a world for you that you are to deal with, one way or another.

    - God has given you the intellectual tools of reason and faith.

    - You are to rely on the tools God has given you rather than "special treatment" from God.

    End conditional hypothesis. (modifications of the above are not accepted

    Given those 3 propositions, why would a person (who believes in God) pray to God? First Off, we must understand that for some people the act of prayer is not necessarily a "serious" intellectual request or requirement, because sometimes the human mind just needs a sense of HOPE to move forward, or it cannot consider any future prospositions whatsoever. This is not the kind of prayer I am talking about, for as they say in the Marines, "There are no Atheists in a fox hole". Social science could not ever be so succinctly summarized, and we needn't give intellectual awards to Jarheads now do we?!

    The kind of prayer I speak of, and bark against, is the kind of prayer that goes on BEYOND hope, and into the realm of "unacceptance" of what has been given from God. People pray for better jobs, better conditions, better family to come home to, better/hotter bitch to come home to fuck, whatever.... but these people have forgotten the first axiom: God has given to YOU what has been decided. You are to find happiness and glory in WHAT HAS BEEN PRESCRIBED!

    I claim that prayer (outside of intellectual desperation and further stipulations) is an act of vanity against God. It is a direct and utterly shameless INSULT against God. You are essentially asking for more than what you were prescribed. This is akin to the Fat Kid asking for more beef stew because he can't muster the energy to pull himself over the bar beam - the problem isn't getting enough meat, fat boy, the problem is your disgusting sin of GLUTTONY and SLOTH underneath God. No true Just God would REQUIRE you to ask for more than what you have received to accomplish your goal, so why in the nine levels of Dante's hell are you begging for more weight and fat?

    The only purpose of prayer (of this form) is to request from God what you were never intentionally given in the first place. What sort of person, actually BELIEVING in God, would do such a thing? This is what baffles me the most......And I must reiterate we must not judge people who are in the grips of despair, life and death moments, but the question is best put: Who among you who actually prays, actually believes? I think you Pray because you DON'T believe, if anything!

    Mayhaps I confuse "Prayer" with Meditation before God. If that is the case, then I submit defeat - for there can be no greater Wisdom than Meditating before God/this Universe and accepting what is to be. However, Prayer is not done in this sense in large part in the western, Christian world, and even though an "NT heathen" such as myself doesn't believe in God, I fear for my fellow human for (1) they pray under a FALSE pretense of HOPE, but have in mind Vanity, Lust, Sloth and Gluttony.

    Or maybe it's just much more simple than that, which to me is even more insulting as an NT: (2)I PRAY TO GOD BECAUSE A PIECE OF PAPYRUS TOLD ME TO!

    I'm not sure whether (1) or (2) is more spiritually disgusting to anyone, although (2) is definitely is more lazy and superficual. No wonder it's the more popular....


    Even if you do acknowlege that people pray for the wrong reasons, why would you pray to begin with? Why is prayer a "symptom" of faith? To me, the act of prayer demonstrates lack of faith in God, and is NOT an act of affirming belief.



    *puts on ESTP hat* How's that for a spirituality thread, huh? Lazy bastards... you're more capable than this.

  2. #2
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Secondary post proclaimed by me to catch the eyes of the lazy poster that skips over posts going beyond 1 paragraph:

    Please explain why prayer isn't just a big old "Fuck you" to the G-man upstairs.

  3. #3
    desert pelican Owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
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    What you're barking at is a violation of the tenth commandment, and God doesn't like it either.

    The chief end of man is to know and glorify God, and enjoy him forever. All actions and desires, including those in prayer, are to be subordinated to this purpose. The believer should be willing to sacrafice all secondary desires, even the desire to maintain his life, for this end; he should be willing to face death, even death on a cross, in order that God might be glorified.

    Amen.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Well, the writer of the piece of papyrus told you to because those writers just like to see if they can make you do stuff. OR they maybe know something about maintaining spiritual health. Prayer is for talking to god; meditation is for listening. You can talk to God about anything. You can say that you're grateful for what you have. You could ask God to maintain the health and spirits of someone who has suffered a tragedy or is spending long hours with someone in the hospital. You can pray to have your faith increased. You can also talk to God about your plans and ask for his blessing and their success if it is his will. I mean, we assume that if we're walking in spirit, then our thoughts and plans will be in good alignment and our efforts will be blessed, but it doesn't hurt to run things by the Big Guy. Maybe part of God's plan for your life is that you will have a burning desire to change some things, but of course you don't know this until it starts to fire up within you, in which case maybe you would pray for guidance about what course of action to take.

    Those selfish prayers often are just answered "No." Or worse, you get the thing you thought you wanted, and it's a trick -- it doesn't make you happy. Then you have to start looking beyond it.

    The prayers I find most effective are prayers for other people.

    I think God wants us to pray and meditate because it keeps us in the proper frame of mind. I think it's good exercise for your spiritual health.

  5. #5
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    You could ask God to maintain the health and spirits of someone who has suffered a tragedy or is spending long hours with someone in the hospital. You can pray to have your faith increased. You can also talk to God about your plans and ask for his blessing and their success if it is his will. I mean, we assume that if we're walking in spirit, then our thoughts and plans will be in good alignment and our efforts will be blessed, but it doesn't hurt to run things by the Big Guy.
    These are all acts of coveting (Lust) - you are not accepting of the particular negative results of the situation God has put you in. Regardless of how big of a heart you have, asking God to save the cancer-ridden child is an insult to the reasoning why it happened in the first place.... and since God's reasoning is divine and perfect, it is foolish to question it.

    Maybe part of God's plan for your life is that you will have a burning desire to change some things, but of course you don't know this until it starts to fire up within you, in which case maybe you would pray for guidance about what course of action to take.
    This implies there is something incomplete about God's understanding of the course of events, which is incompatible with the established properties of God (as initially assumed/axiom'd, anyway).... or wait, maybe it doesn't.... I'm not sure.... are you saying God has particular events planned independantly of praying, that prayer is like a "side effect" kind of thing?

    I think God wants us to pray and meditate because it keeps us in the proper frame of mind. I think it's good exercise for your spiritual health.

    The bolded part is very problematic. You're essentially saying that God is a some sort of Bully who wants the poor nerdy kid to ask, to BEG, for his insulin, that both parties know is desired and required, before it is returned..... or he wants to see you get on your knees nad pray before he saves that cancer-ridden child. This is something akin to psychopathy, if you take it seriously.

    There's no sensible reason why God would require one to pray to receive a result. The only possible sidestep here is to consider prayer as an act, just one possible mechanism/way of doing things to award certain results onto people, but then prayer is not a choice and it's just a part of deterministic mechanics.

    Meditation, on the other hand, is in line with God's will and accepting of the course of events that have happened. so why not just do that and forgo insulting the world God has given?

  6. #6
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    nozflubber, I urge you, emphatically, to consider that Tiltyred has not disagreed with you, but that you may have given that response an interpretation which was not intended.
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

  7. #7
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Confusion of similar/like terms is something any philosophy student has to consider, so I readily accept we may be describing the same ideas in different ways. "The history of philosophy is largely a history of human temperment" - William James

    However, for the sake of my enlightenment, could you address the questions? Why would God "want" us to pray? It would still be nice to see our verbal behavior/terms align, in any case

  8. #8
    Oberon
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    flubz is just jealous 'cuz we're not all prayin' to flubz.

  9. #9
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    Confusion of similar/like terms is something any philosophy student has to consider, so I readily accept we may be describing the same ideas in different ways. "The history of philosophy is largely a history of human temperment" - William James

    However, for the sake of my enlightenment, could you address the questions? Why would God "want" us to pray? It would still be nice to see our verbal behavior/terms align, in any case
    You've suggested in your first post that the important consideration is a matter of what exactly is being prayed for. It is as you suggest, too, that no one is going to be better off praying for anything which they can't, of their own ability, bring about. Yes, it is no use to pray for a child with cancer to not physically perish, and those who pray in this way have harbored a bit of a confusion. We can pardon the confusion, however, and understand their prayer as falling under a more wholesome kind which is merely a kind of request for strength.

    This is not a strength which is not given to the person.
    This is a strength which is given to the person.

    People can pray quite legitimately for what they already have, not for anything God has not provided. For example, consider one of Tiltyred's examples, a prayer for an increase in faith. This increase is brought about by one's own will, not by something not provided to them. The prayer is a matter of focusing, of, through one's own willpower, clarifying as though by fire one's own will and purpose, burning away inessential and trivial features which instead distract oneself. It is exactly in this way people pray for hope, as you have suggested, which you have said is not the kind of prayer you find distasteful. The hope is already within them, but it is not attainable without the conscious will to call it forth.

    Is there any doubt that God wants any of us to use what we already have to clarify our wills and our purpose? Surely not. But can you appreciate how this clarification takes the form of prayer? The wish to know and draw on the will of God within us takes the form of request upon God. This is no surprise. One merely asks as though to receive from an inheritance or stockpile of what amounts to the gifts of God already given to us. One, in a sense, grows into the acceptance of this inheritance.
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

  10. #10
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    People can pray quite legitimately for what they already have, not for anything God has not provided.
    that's very interesting.... and while it might seem rediculus to pray for something you already have, it makes sense when you consider the nature of the human mind...

    Just curious: Would you/are you supporting the notion that prayer is a Symptom, not a cause?

    The wish to know and draw on the will of God within us takes the form of request upon God.
    This is good too, because it's also ammunition against something that bugs the hell out of me: Having to pray in particular locations and in particular ways/kinesthetic arrangements of body. If we accept that prayer enacts only what is within us, why would we need to go to a building to achieve that state, and in a particular position? Conditioned Place Preference? not exactly something you'd expect from someone that holds "this world is nothing" and "The Kingdom of God is within you".... then again those are christian beliefs and may not apply to the argument

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