• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Why Prayer is a SIN and affront to God

nozflubber

DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,078
MBTI Type
Hype
I'm sick and tired of these weak ass spirituality threads and reading about why "an NT would [consider] God". No offense but these discussions are for intellectual infants that can't grasp such a concept as beautiful as God (I blame lack of mathematics and philosophy training myself), so I want to post something that's really been itching the fuck out of me lately: Prayer.

Synthetical Hypothesis begins:

- God exists and prescribes a world for you that you are to deal with, one way or another.

- God has given you the intellectual tools of reason and faith.

- You are to rely on the tools God has given you rather than "special treatment" from God.

End conditional hypothesis. (modifications of the above are not accepted

Given those 3 propositions, why would a person (who believes in God) pray to God? First Off, we must understand that for some people the act of prayer is not necessarily a "serious" intellectual request or requirement, because sometimes the human mind just needs a sense of HOPE to move forward, or it cannot consider any future prospositions whatsoever. This is not the kind of prayer I am talking about, for as they say in the Marines, "There are no Atheists in a fox hole". Social science could not ever be so succinctly summarized, and we needn't give intellectual awards to Jarheads now do we?!

The kind of prayer I speak of, and bark against, is the kind of prayer that goes on BEYOND hope, and into the realm of "unacceptance" of what has been given from God. People pray for better jobs, better conditions, better family to come home to, better/hotter bitch to come home to fuck, whatever.... but these people have forgotten the first axiom: God has given to YOU what has been decided. You are to find happiness and glory in WHAT HAS BEEN PRESCRIBED!

I claim that prayer (outside of intellectual desperation and further stipulations) is an act of vanity against God. It is a direct and utterly shameless INSULT against God. You are essentially asking for more than what you were prescribed. This is akin to the Fat Kid asking for more beef stew because he can't muster the energy to pull himself over the bar beam - the problem isn't getting enough meat, fat boy, the problem is your disgusting sin of GLUTTONY and SLOTH underneath God. No true Just God would REQUIRE you to ask for more than what you have received to accomplish your goal, so why in the nine levels of Dante's hell are you begging for more weight and fat?

The only purpose of prayer (of this form) is to request from God what you were never intentionally given in the first place. What sort of person, actually BELIEVING in God, would do such a thing? This is what baffles me the most......And I must reiterate we must not judge people who are in the grips of despair, life and death moments, but the question is best put: Who among you who actually prays, actually believes? I think you Pray because you DON'T believe, if anything!

Mayhaps I confuse "Prayer" with Meditation before God. If that is the case, then I submit defeat - for there can be no greater Wisdom than Meditating before God/this Universe and accepting what is to be. However, Prayer is not done in this sense in large part in the western, Christian world, and even though an "NT heathen" such as myself doesn't believe in God, I fear for my fellow human for (1) they pray under a FALSE pretense of HOPE, but have in mind Vanity, Lust, Sloth and Gluttony.

Or maybe it's just much more simple than that, which to me is even more insulting as an NT: (2)I PRAY TO GOD BECAUSE A PIECE OF PAPYRUS TOLD ME TO!

I'm not sure whether (1) or (2) is more spiritually disgusting to anyone, although (2) is definitely is more lazy and superficual. No wonder it's the more popular....


Even if you do acknowlege that people pray for the wrong reasons, why would you pray to begin with? Why is prayer a "symptom" of faith? To me, the act of prayer demonstrates lack of faith in God, and is NOT an act of affirming belief.



*puts on ESTP hat* How's that for a spirituality thread, huh? Lazy bastards... you're more capable than this.
 

nozflubber

DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,078
MBTI Type
Hype
Secondary post proclaimed by me to catch the eyes of the lazy poster that skips over posts going beyond 1 paragraph:

Please explain why prayer isn't just a big old "Fuck you" to the G-man upstairs.
 

Owl

desert pelican
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
717
MBTI Type
INTP

What you're barking at is a violation of the tenth commandment, and God doesn't like it either.

The chief end of man is to know and glorify God, and enjoy him forever. All actions and desires, including those in prayer, are to be subordinated to this purpose. The believer should be willing to sacrafice all secondary desires, even the desire to maintain his life, for this end; he should be willing to face death, even death on a cross, in order that God might be glorified.

Amen.
 

Tiltyred

New member
Joined
Dec 1, 2008
Messages
4,322
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
468
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Well, the writer of the piece of papyrus told you to because those writers just like to see if they can make you do stuff. OR they maybe know something about maintaining spiritual health. Prayer is for talking to god; meditation is for listening. You can talk to God about anything. You can say that you're grateful for what you have. You could ask God to maintain the health and spirits of someone who has suffered a tragedy or is spending long hours with someone in the hospital. You can pray to have your faith increased. You can also talk to God about your plans and ask for his blessing and their success if it is his will. I mean, we assume that if we're walking in spirit, then our thoughts and plans will be in good alignment and our efforts will be blessed, but it doesn't hurt to run things by the Big Guy. Maybe part of God's plan for your life is that you will have a burning desire to change some things, but of course you don't know this until it starts to fire up within you, in which case maybe you would pray for guidance about what course of action to take.

Those selfish prayers often are just answered "No." Or worse, you get the thing you thought you wanted, and it's a trick -- it doesn't make you happy. Then you have to start looking beyond it.

The prayers I find most effective are prayers for other people.

I think God wants us to pray and meditate because it keeps us in the proper frame of mind. I think it's good exercise for your spiritual health.
 

nozflubber

DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,078
MBTI Type
Hype
You could ask God to maintain the health and spirits of someone who has suffered a tragedy or is spending long hours with someone in the hospital. You can pray to have your faith increased. You can also talk to God about your plans and ask for his blessing and their success if it is his will. I mean, we assume that if we're walking in spirit, then our thoughts and plans will be in good alignment and our efforts will be blessed, but it doesn't hurt to run things by the Big Guy.

These are all acts of coveting (Lust) - you are not accepting of the particular negative results of the situation God has put you in. Regardless of how big of a heart you have, asking God to save the cancer-ridden child is an insult to the reasoning why it happened in the first place.... and since God's reasoning is divine and perfect, it is foolish to question it.

Maybe part of God's plan for your life is that you will have a burning desire to change some things, but of course you don't know this until it starts to fire up within you, in which case maybe you would pray for guidance about what course of action to take.

This implies there is something incomplete about God's understanding of the course of events, which is incompatible with the established properties of God (as initially assumed/axiom'd, anyway).... or wait, maybe it doesn't.... I'm not sure.... are you saying God has particular events planned independantly of praying, that prayer is like a "side effect" kind of thing?

I think God wants us to pray and meditate because it keeps us in the proper frame of mind. I think it's good exercise for your spiritual health.


The bolded part is very problematic. You're essentially saying that God is a some sort of Bully who wants the poor nerdy kid to ask, to BEG, for his insulin, that both parties know is desired and required, before it is returned..... or he wants to see you get on your knees nad pray before he saves that cancer-ridden child. This is something akin to psychopathy, if you take it seriously.

There's no sensible reason why God would require one to pray to receive a result. The only possible sidestep here is to consider prayer as an act, just one possible mechanism/way of doing things to award certain results onto people, but then prayer is not a choice and it's just a part of deterministic mechanics.

Meditation, on the other hand, is in line with God's will and accepting of the course of events that have happened. so why not just do that and forgo insulting the world God has given?
 

antireconciler

it's a nuclear device
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
866
MBTI Type
Intj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
so
nozflubber, I urge you, emphatically, to consider that Tiltyred has not disagreed with you, but that you may have given that response an interpretation which was not intended.
 

nozflubber

DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,078
MBTI Type
Hype
Confusion of similar/like terms is something any philosophy student has to consider, so I readily accept we may be describing the same ideas in different ways. "The history of philosophy is largely a history of human temperment" - William James

However, for the sake of my enlightenment, could you address the questions? Why would God "want" us to pray? It would still be nice to see our verbal behavior/terms align, in any case
 

antireconciler

it's a nuclear device
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
866
MBTI Type
Intj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
so
Confusion of similar/like terms is something any philosophy student has to consider, so I readily accept we may be describing the same ideas in different ways. "The history of philosophy is largely a history of human temperment" - William James

However, for the sake of my enlightenment, could you address the questions? Why would God "want" us to pray? It would still be nice to see our verbal behavior/terms align, in any case

You've suggested in your first post that the important consideration is a matter of what exactly is being prayed for. It is as you suggest, too, that no one is going to be better off praying for anything which they can't, of their own ability, bring about. Yes, it is no use to pray for a child with cancer to not physically perish, and those who pray in this way have harbored a bit of a confusion. We can pardon the confusion, however, and understand their prayer as falling under a more wholesome kind which is merely a kind of request for strength.

This is not a strength which is not given to the person.
This is a strength which is given to the person.

People can pray quite legitimately for what they already have, not for anything God has not provided. For example, consider one of Tiltyred's examples, a prayer for an increase in faith. This increase is brought about by one's own will, not by something not provided to them. The prayer is a matter of focusing, of, through one's own willpower, clarifying as though by fire one's own will and purpose, burning away inessential and trivial features which instead distract oneself. It is exactly in this way people pray for hope, as you have suggested, which you have said is not the kind of prayer you find distasteful. The hope is already within them, but it is not attainable without the conscious will to call it forth.

Is there any doubt that God wants any of us to use what we already have to clarify our wills and our purpose? Surely not. But can you appreciate how this clarification takes the form of prayer? The wish to know and draw on the will of God within us takes the form of request upon God. This is no surprise. One merely asks as though to receive from an inheritance or stockpile of what amounts to the gifts of God already given to us. One, in a sense, grows into the acceptance of this inheritance.
 

nozflubber

DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,078
MBTI Type
Hype
People can pray quite legitimately for what they already have, not for anything God has not provided.
that's very interesting.... and while it might seem rediculus to pray for something you already have, it makes sense when you consider the nature of the human mind...

Just curious: Would you/are you supporting the notion that prayer is a Symptom, not a cause?

The wish to know and draw on the will of God within us takes the form of request upon God.

This is good too, because it's also ammunition against something that bugs the hell out of me: Having to pray in particular locations and in particular ways/kinesthetic arrangements of body. If we accept that prayer enacts only what is within us, why would we need to go to a building to achieve that state, and in a particular position? Conditioned Place Preference? not exactly something you'd expect from someone that holds "this world is nothing" and "The Kingdom of God is within you".... then again those are christian beliefs and may not apply to the argument
 

nozflubber

DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
Joined
Mar 30, 2008
Messages
2,078
MBTI Type
Hype
flubz is just jealous 'cuz we're not all prayin' to flubz.

troofz! Bow Down:

flubber_ver3.jpg
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
meditation is for listening.

The prayers I find most effective are prayers for other people.

How true - meditation is for listening, and listening is meditation.

And how delightful - to pray for another gives our prayers wings - they fly straight up into the blue sky.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Mayhaps I confuse "Prayer" with Meditation before God. If that is the case, then I submit defeat - for there can be no greater Wisdom than Meditating before God/this Universe and accepting what is to be. However, Prayer is not done in this sense in large part in the western, Christian world...[/B]

There is a developed tradition of Christian meditation going back 2,000 years.

This tradition has shaped the whole of Western culture.

And as I write there are Christians across the world practising meditation in this tradition.

Protestant Evangelicals do seem to be resistant to this tradition, which is a shame. As meditation adds depth and richness and even direction to any culture.

Meditators aren't very noisy, and so may be overlooked.
 

antireconciler

it's a nuclear device
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
866
MBTI Type
Intj
Enneagram
5w4
Instinctual Variant
so
while it might seem rediculus to pray for something you already have, it makes sense when you consider the nature of the human mind...

Yes. It is because there is a difference between our philosophies and the actual operation of our minds. You see that even if we follow various thoughts to their conclusions and reach a decisively correct way of perceiving, it takes time--and quite the majority of people spend their whole lives doing this--to truly integrate the dictates of their reasoning with their whole mind and their life.

One might be quick to say that the mind simply forgets what it has learned, but in a sense it hasn't forgotten at all, but simply has yet to learn the true depth of the consequences of its correct reasoning. One is constantly learning the same things one already knows ... but in new ways, and with greater certainty. The mind has to be shaped and fashioned by reason into a tool of reason, and this takes time. It takes a fire and water, anvil and hammer. I, myself, am very much yet a student.

The point of my mentioning this, however, is that if you can appreciate how we are virtually all students yet, then it becomes easier for us to want to teach ourselves and others, and to thus adopt the characteristics most conducive for teaching, such as patience, such as forgiveness, such as an unwillingness to throw our hands up and become angered at ourselves and others for the time it takes them and ourselves to learn, and with determination to see to the well-being and growth of everyone into the full strength and clarity and brilliance which is in them. You accepted this responsibility when you first thought to philosophize, because that is what that first thought was.

Just curious: Would you/are you supporting the notion that prayer is a Symptom, not a cause?

Sorry, a symptom or cause of what?

If we accept that prayer enacts only what is within us, why would we need to go to a building to achieve that state, and in a particular position? Conditioned Place Preference? not exactly something you'd expect from someone that holds "this world is nothing" and "The Kingdom of God is within you".... then again those are christian beliefs and may not apply to the argument

And you're right, it's not necessary ... but this doesn't exclude the possibility that it may be useful for a time, for training. Perhaps in a similar way a child first uses a walker when learning to walk before discarding it later when it is no longer useful. That all children discard them later is not to say we should prevent their use in the first place.

I've heard that the most disciplined people--and truly, reasoning well is a discipline, I think you would agree--are those who create structure in their lives. People may impose all manner of arbitrary restrictions on their activities not because the restrictions themselves are divine of themselves, any more than someone establishing any kind of goal for themselves is, and yet, humans seems to thrive on generating this structure for themselves, as a matter of creativity. It is both structure and play which together as one craft one's life into an artistic expression, into a work of beauty.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,187
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
I'm sick and tired of these weak ass spirituality threads and reading about why "an NT would [consider] God". No offense but these discussions are for intellectual infants that can't grasp such a concept as beautiful as God (I blame lack of mathematics and philosophy training myself)

Okay, that part pissed me off, regardless of how much or little i agree with you elsewhere.

Frankly: You have no more clue than I do, or anyone else does. Who can speak authoritatively about God, with anger in their voice?

No one. None of us are God.
You just have an idea.
Just like everyone else.

First Off, we must understand that for some people the act of prayer is not necessarily a "serious" intellectual request or requirement, because sometimes the human mind just needs a sense of HOPE to move forward, or it cannot consider any future prospositions whatsoever.

Good point.


The kind of prayer I speak of, and bark against,

woof?

is the kind of prayer that goes on BEYOND hope, and into the realm of "unacceptance" of what has been given from God. People pray for better jobs, better conditions, better family to come home to, better/hotter bitch to come home to fuck, whatever.... but these people have forgotten the first axiom: God has given to YOU what has been decided. You are to find happiness and glory in WHAT HAS BEEN PRESCRIBED!

Since I'm a parent, while I actually agree mostly with this, I'm going to pushback.

I don't mind if my kids ask for things I've not given them.

In fact, I love it when I get to find out their hearts when they share what's eating at them or what they most desire with me, even if I've currently prescribed something else for them.

I only get irked when they argue and trying to manipulate me overtly into giving me something different than what I've already provided out of my best judgment and we've discussed it so they have an idea of my reasons. At that point, it's whiny rebellion, and I can't change anything because I've made the best decision possible, and at that point I need them to accept things and work through the ramifications.

So my point here is: If I am a human being and sometimes I think it's totally fine and even positive for my children to come to me with their requests and desires, I have to accept the possibility that for any "God" figure, it could be possible as well.

I claim that prayer (outside of intellectual desperation and further stipulations) is an act of vanity against God. It is a direct and utterly shameless INSULT against God. You are essentially asking for more than what you were prescribed.

Yes, that reaction is possible, and I've seen it, and I don't like it either.

But your reaction is far too strong and judgmental. I'm getting the impression you haven't been run over by any dump trucks yet and come to a better understanding why some people might struggle against "What they have been given to deal with."

The next step is to realize that people are at where they are at, and they cannot be more than what they are right at that moment.

I think you Pray because you DON'T believe, if anything!

I agree.

Faith is a funny thing.
Some people pray because of a lack of faith.
Some pray because of faith.

I find that I don't "pray" in the typical sense as much as some people who seem to have a lack of faith and constantly needs reassurance from God that things will turn out positively or begging for the situation to change to better accommodate their desires.

I'm going through a very rough time with someone I dearly love and who loves me, and neither of us knows what the future holds right now, and we both told each other that things are going to be okay, even though we both are broken up at not having a roadmap or an answer key and we know we're WAY off the beaten path. All we know is that we love each other deeply, and we have faith that God will not abandon us, and the good things that were planted will come to fruition... but we have no idea how it's going to get there. There's little to do but have faith and courage to keep being who we are and doing what we think is right together, and not worry about the outcome.

And we both have taken crap from more "religious-minded" people who pray to control outcomes. I see that for what it is now ... generally self-seeking prayers, made on a basis of fear and not faith.

But at the same time, that's where they are; and it is where I once was too; and there's not much to say except to challenge it by example and show a better way.


Or maybe it's just much more simple than that, which to me is even more insulting as an NT: (2)I PRAY TO GOD BECAUSE A PIECE OF PAPYRUS TOLD ME TO!

Well, yeah, that's sort of insulting.
I never understand that approach to God.
I try... but... it's just insane to me.

To me, the act of prayer demonstrates lack of faith in God, and is NOT an act of affirming belief.

Prayer can sometimes demonstrate a lack of faith in God.
Not all prayer is a lack of faith.

It should be judged by the circumstances and the heart of the person praying. You can't just lump-categorize people. You're more capable than that.
 

Wonkavision

Retired Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
1,154
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
What you're barking at is a violation of the tenth commandment, and God doesn't like it either.

The chief end of man is to know and glorify God, and enjoy him forever. All actions and desires, including those in prayer, are to be subordinated to this purpose. The believer should be willing to sacrafice all secondary desires, even the desire to maintain his life, for this end; he should be willing to face death, even death on a cross, in order that God might be glorified.

Amen.

Are you a Reformed Baptist or Reformed Presbyterian, by any chance, Owl?

I'm not one, but I have much respect for them. :D
 

Wonkavision

Retired Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
1,154
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w8
And here I thought all Presbyterians were Reformed by definition...

Yeah, in a historical sense, they are, because they came out of the Reformation.

I meant in the denominational sense.

It sounds like Owl was quoting one of the various Puritan Confessions.

Reformed Baptists and Reformed Presbyterians usually refer to the Confessions, whereas other Baptists and Presbyterians do not.
 

Laurie

Was E.laur
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
6,072
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
7w6
Given those 3 propositions, why would a person (who believes in God) pray to God?

I entirely disagree with your propositions. It's fine to rail against something when you try to at least understand where someone is coming from, but when you rail against it because of your "3 assumptions" then you aren't even talking the same language.

Prayer is not just about asking for stuff. Prayer is about a relationship.

Sometimes people get so up in arms about religion but won't take the time to understand someone else's viewpoint. What's the point of the discussion then?
 

Anja

New member
Joined
May 2, 2008
Messages
2,967
MBTI Type
INFP
I believe there are five commonly recognized types of prayer for Christians. Supplication is only one.

There's also praise, thanks, love. Can't remember the last. Maybe a prayer of confession?

Not sure the OP is what this thread is about.
 
Top