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  1. #11
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    flubz is just jealous 'cuz we're not all prayin' to flubz.
    troofz! Bow Down:


  2. #12
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    meditation is for listening.

    The prayers I find most effective are prayers for other people.
    How true - meditation is for listening, and listening is meditation.

    And how delightful - to pray for another gives our prayers wings - they fly straight up into the blue sky.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    Mayhaps I confuse "Prayer" with Meditation before God. If that is the case, then I submit defeat - for there can be no greater Wisdom than Meditating before God/this Universe and accepting what is to be. However, Prayer is not done in this sense in large part in the western, Christian world...[/B]
    There is a developed tradition of Christian meditation going back 2,000 years.

    This tradition has shaped the whole of Western culture.

    And as I write there are Christians across the world practising meditation in this tradition.

    Protestant Evangelicals do seem to be resistant to this tradition, which is a shame. As meditation adds depth and richness and even direction to any culture.

    Meditators aren't very noisy, and so may be overlooked.

  4. #14
    it's a nuclear device antireconciler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    while it might seem rediculus to pray for something you already have, it makes sense when you consider the nature of the human mind...
    Yes. It is because there is a difference between our philosophies and the actual operation of our minds. You see that even if we follow various thoughts to their conclusions and reach a decisively correct way of perceiving, it takes time--and quite the majority of people spend their whole lives doing this--to truly integrate the dictates of their reasoning with their whole mind and their life.

    One might be quick to say that the mind simply forgets what it has learned, but in a sense it hasn't forgotten at all, but simply has yet to learn the true depth of the consequences of its correct reasoning. One is constantly learning the same things one already knows ... but in new ways, and with greater certainty. The mind has to be shaped and fashioned by reason into a tool of reason, and this takes time. It takes a fire and water, anvil and hammer. I, myself, am very much yet a student.

    The point of my mentioning this, however, is that if you can appreciate how we are virtually all students yet, then it becomes easier for us to want to teach ourselves and others, and to thus adopt the characteristics most conducive for teaching, such as patience, such as forgiveness, such as an unwillingness to throw our hands up and become angered at ourselves and others for the time it takes them and ourselves to learn, and with determination to see to the well-being and growth of everyone into the full strength and clarity and brilliance which is in them. You accepted this responsibility when you first thought to philosophize, because that is what that first thought was.

    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    Just curious: Would you/are you supporting the notion that prayer is a Symptom, not a cause?
    Sorry, a symptom or cause of what?

    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    If we accept that prayer enacts only what is within us, why would we need to go to a building to achieve that state, and in a particular position? Conditioned Place Preference? not exactly something you'd expect from someone that holds "this world is nothing" and "The Kingdom of God is within you".... then again those are christian beliefs and may not apply to the argument
    And you're right, it's not necessary ... but this doesn't exclude the possibility that it may be useful for a time, for training. Perhaps in a similar way a child first uses a walker when learning to walk before discarding it later when it is no longer useful. That all children discard them later is not to say we should prevent their use in the first place.

    I've heard that the most disciplined people--and truly, reasoning well is a discipline, I think you would agree--are those who create structure in their lives. People may impose all manner of arbitrary restrictions on their activities not because the restrictions themselves are divine of themselves, any more than someone establishing any kind of goal for themselves is, and yet, humans seems to thrive on generating this structure for themselves, as a matter of creativity. It is both structure and play which together as one craft one's life into an artistic expression, into a work of beauty.
    ~ a n t i r e c o n c i l e r
    What is death, dies.
    What is life, lives.

  5. #15
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    I'm sick and tired of these weak ass spirituality threads and reading about why "an NT would [consider] God". No offense but these discussions are for intellectual infants that can't grasp such a concept as beautiful as God (I blame lack of mathematics and philosophy training myself)
    Okay, that part pissed me off, regardless of how much or little i agree with you elsewhere.

    Frankly: You have no more clue than I do, or anyone else does. Who can speak authoritatively about God, with anger in their voice?

    No one. None of us are God.
    You just have an idea.
    Just like everyone else.

    First Off, we must understand that for some people the act of prayer is not necessarily a "serious" intellectual request or requirement, because sometimes the human mind just needs a sense of HOPE to move forward, or it cannot consider any future prospositions whatsoever.
    Good point.


    The kind of prayer I speak of, and bark against,
    woof?

    is the kind of prayer that goes on BEYOND hope, and into the realm of "unacceptance" of what has been given from God. People pray for better jobs, better conditions, better family to come home to, better/hotter bitch to come home to fuck, whatever.... but these people have forgotten the first axiom: God has given to YOU what has been decided. You are to find happiness and glory in WHAT HAS BEEN PRESCRIBED!
    Since I'm a parent, while I actually agree mostly with this, I'm going to pushback.

    I don't mind if my kids ask for things I've not given them.

    In fact, I love it when I get to find out their hearts when they share what's eating at them or what they most desire with me, even if I've currently prescribed something else for them.

    I only get irked when they argue and trying to manipulate me overtly into giving me something different than what I've already provided out of my best judgment and we've discussed it so they have an idea of my reasons. At that point, it's whiny rebellion, and I can't change anything because I've made the best decision possible, and at that point I need them to accept things and work through the ramifications.

    So my point here is: If I am a human being and sometimes I think it's totally fine and even positive for my children to come to me with their requests and desires, I have to accept the possibility that for any "God" figure, it could be possible as well.

    I claim that prayer (outside of intellectual desperation and further stipulations) is an act of vanity against God. It is a direct and utterly shameless INSULT against God. You are essentially asking for more than what you were prescribed.
    Yes, that reaction is possible, and I've seen it, and I don't like it either.

    But your reaction is far too strong and judgmental. I'm getting the impression you haven't been run over by any dump trucks yet and come to a better understanding why some people might struggle against "What they have been given to deal with."

    The next step is to realize that people are at where they are at, and they cannot be more than what they are right at that moment.

    I think you Pray because you DON'T believe, if anything!
    I agree.

    Faith is a funny thing.
    Some people pray because of a lack of faith.
    Some pray because of faith.

    I find that I don't "pray" in the typical sense as much as some people who seem to have a lack of faith and constantly needs reassurance from God that things will turn out positively or begging for the situation to change to better accommodate their desires.

    I'm going through a very rough time with someone I dearly love and who loves me, and neither of us knows what the future holds right now, and we both told each other that things are going to be okay, even though we both are broken up at not having a roadmap or an answer key and we know we're WAY off the beaten path. All we know is that we love each other deeply, and we have faith that God will not abandon us, and the good things that were planted will come to fruition... but we have no idea how it's going to get there. There's little to do but have faith and courage to keep being who we are and doing what we think is right together, and not worry about the outcome.

    And we both have taken crap from more "religious-minded" people who pray to control outcomes. I see that for what it is now ... generally self-seeking prayers, made on a basis of fear and not faith.

    But at the same time, that's where they are; and it is where I once was too; and there's not much to say except to challenge it by example and show a better way.


    Or maybe it's just much more simple than that, which to me is even more insulting as an NT: (2)I PRAY TO GOD BECAUSE A PIECE OF PAPYRUS TOLD ME TO!
    Well, yeah, that's sort of insulting.
    I never understand that approach to God.
    I try... but... it's just insane to me.

    To me, the act of prayer demonstrates lack of faith in God, and is NOT an act of affirming belief.
    Prayer can sometimes demonstrate a lack of faith in God.
    Not all prayer is a lack of faith.

    It should be judged by the circumstances and the heart of the person praying. You can't just lump-categorize people. You're more capable than that.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #16
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owl View Post
    What you're barking at is a violation of the tenth commandment, and God doesn't like it either.

    The chief end of man is to know and glorify God, and enjoy him forever. All actions and desires, including those in prayer, are to be subordinated to this purpose. The believer should be willing to sacrafice all secondary desires, even the desire to maintain his life, for this end; he should be willing to face death, even death on a cross, in order that God might be glorified.

    Amen.
    Are you a Reformed Baptist or Reformed Presbyterian, by any chance, Owl?

    I'm not one, but I have much respect for them.

  7. #17
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonkavision View Post
    Are you a Reformed Baptist or Reformed Presbyterian, by any chance, Owl?

    I'm not one, but I have much respect for them.
    And here I thought all Presbyterians were Reformed by definition...

  8. #18
    Retired Member Wonkavision's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    And here I thought all Presbyterians were Reformed by definition...
    Yeah, in a historical sense, they are, because they came out of the Reformation.

    I meant in the denominational sense.

    It sounds like Owl was quoting one of the various Puritan Confessions.

    Reformed Baptists and Reformed Presbyterians usually refer to the Confessions, whereas other Baptists and Presbyterians do not.

  9. #19
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    Given those 3 propositions, why would a person (who believes in God) pray to God?
    I entirely disagree with your propositions. It's fine to rail against something when you try to at least understand where someone is coming from, but when you rail against it because of your "3 assumptions" then you aren't even talking the same language.

    Prayer is not just about asking for stuff. Prayer is about a relationship.

    Sometimes people get so up in arms about religion but won't take the time to understand someone else's viewpoint. What's the point of the discussion then?

  10. #20
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I believe there are five commonly recognized types of prayer for Christians. Supplication is only one.

    There's also praise, thanks, love. Can't remember the last. Maybe a prayer of confession?

    Not sure the OP is what this thread is about.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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