Darwin would be ashamed

[wolfy]

As the self-appointed referee in this particular match, I declare Darwin the winner.
Anyway this entry in Roger Eberts Blog is about as well balanced as it gets.

You can't convince others against their will so why even try?

 

[01011010]

Very often what you believe does determine much about you.

I think everyone in the thread will agree with that statement.

You can't convince others against their will so why even try?

Yes, exactly. Let's get back to the dragon discussion.

 

[nolla]

Very often what you believe does determine much about you.

All the more reason to not teach religion as history. There are people whose religion teaches them to honor those who kill certain people and so on... How about they knew the facts, the other people are just like them, apes and nothing more. Just as valuable.

 

[Sniffles]

All the more reason to not teach religion as history. There are people whose religion teaches them to honor those who kill certain people and so on...

And what exactly do they teach in Finnish schools about the men who fought off the Soviet invasion in the Winter War?

How about they knew the facts, the other people are just like them, apes and nothing more. Just as valuable.

If they're apes and nothing more, then they're not valuable at all. How about we get into the history of Social Darwinism and the effects it had on the world?

 

[heart]

How about they knew the facts, the other people are just like them, apes and nothing more. Just as valuable.

Even the theory of evolution doesn't present man as equal to an ape in development. If one wants to be an ape---the box to leave your toliet paper behind is on the left, exit to the trees on the right.

Thank you.

 

[nolla]

And what exactly do they teach in Finnish schools about the men who fought off the Soviet invasion in the Winter War?

I can't say I know much about the finnish men who fought there. I think we were taught how the war progressed and so on. There are some famous plays and fictional books about it of course, but they aren't used to educate history.

If they're apes and nothing more, then they're not valuable at all.

Well, yes. We are only valuable in our own community and as a part of our species. If you ask an ape, I don't think it values humans much.

Even the theory of evolution doesn't present man as equal to an ape in development. If one wants to be an ape---the box to leave your toliet paper behind is on the left, exit to the trees on the right.

Thank you.

Taught apes would choose the toilet paper.

 

[Sniffles]

And what exactly do they teach in Finnish schools about the men who fought off the Soviet invasion in the Winter War?

So nolla, do these men deserve to be honored, since they killed certain people?
[youtube="fbndUSHL9A0"]tribute to brave finnish soldiers[/youtube]

 

[ptgatsby]

I can drop a wrench on your foot and demonstrate gravity. No comparable demonstration exists for evolution.

Actually, a lot of demonstrations exist for evolution now - it has become pretty much the most explored theory (simply due to the diversity of nature and the degree of evolution involvement at both micro and macro levels - a lot of disciplines work on it) out there. Dogs were used by MP, but most schools go through the fruit fly, the bacteria and the virus mutations in labs now.

That's actually what makes the OP sad to me. We are what we are, and a lot of people want to hide from it.


(And of course, I'm sure I'll have to state that evolution does not explain the origin of life, and doesn't... we are still trying to build life from inorganic materials... and while we are close that, it's not biological yet. We can only build biological machines... the whole reproduction thing is trickier. Wait a few years and that'll be different.)

 

[Magic Poriferan]

Ahhh spoken like a true NT. In actuality, truth is subjectivity. Very often what you believe does determine much about you.

There's a difference between the impact of self-determinism, and factual statements about yourself. Believing something may effect your behavior, which in turn can guide the course of your life, but it can't change factual reality. That you believe you are a pumpkin does not make it so.

If they're apes and nothing more, then they're not valuable at all. How about we get into the history of Social Darwinism and the effects it had on the world?

Hey, I like apes. They are worth a lot.

Secondly, social darwinism actually has almost nothing to do with Darwin. A man, around the same time as Darwin's theories, independantly developed the sociological theory, and because Darwin was so famous at the time, people slapped the theory with the label "social darwinism" which neither thinker came up with.

 

[heart]

Taught apes would choose the toilet paper.

Why then don't they create their own?

 

[Costrin]

So nolla, do these men deserve to be honored, since they killed certain people?
[youtube="fbndUSHL9A0"]tribute to brave finnish soldiers[/youtube]

I'm guessing you're suggesting they should be? Well, I think it depends on your perspective. They fought to protect their country and their people, so you could honor them for that. But at the same time they killed people, and fully intended to, so they could also be perceived as evil.

Or maybe that was your point in the first place?

 

[nolla]

So nolla, do these men deserve to be honored, since they killed certain people?

Defending yourself is quite a different thing than killing people because they believe in different things. Of course you will say that the russians believed in their course of action and then you will point out that we we're hitler's allies. Where are you going with this?

 

[Sniffles]

There's a difference between the impact of self-determinism, and factual statements about yourself.

And what are factual statements about oneself?

Believing something may effect your behavior, which in turn can guide the course of your life

That's the point.

Secondly, social darwinism actually has almost nothing to do with Darwin. A man, around the same time as Darwin's theories, independantly developed the sociological theory, and because Darwin was so famous at the time, people slapped the theory with the label "social darwinism" which neither thinker came up with.

I'm well aware of this. Im not saying Darwinism and Social Darwinism are the same, but it does show the dangers and flaws of tyring to apply "science" to social affairs.

 

[01011010]

I'm guessing you're suggesting they should be? Well, I think it depends on your perspective. They fought to protect their country and their people, so you could honor them for that. But at the same time they killed people, and fully intended to, so they could also be perceived as evil.

Or maybe that was your point in the first place?

Perception is a tricky little devil. The most heinous atrocities are committed with good intentions. Who or what is right?

 

[Costrin]

Perception is a tricky little devil. The most heinous atrocities are committed with good intentions. Who or what is right?

Whoever or whatever benefits you is right. That's all you can really use to judge. Of course, there isn't really a wrong or right in the objective sense anyway.

 

[nolla]

Why then don't they create their own?

I doubt that I could invent toilet paper if I hadn't seen it or been taught to use it... Just because we have all this infrastructure and tools doesn't mean that we are very much better. We have just cumulated the past inventions. Just like apes do. Did you know they have "cultures" in the way they use tools? Some ape clans use different inventions than the others...

 

[Sniffles]

Defending yourself is quite a different thing than killing people because they believe in different things. Of course you will say that the russians believed in their course of action and then you will point out that we we're hitler's allies. Where are you going with this?

You claimed that religion has no place in education because it teaches to honor people who killed others. So Im asking if you consistently believe in this when it comes to the men who fought to defend your country, since they killed others. Should they, or should they not be honored in your view?

 

[Magic Poriferan]

And what are factual statements about oneself?

I am not a rock. Let's just say that there's a lot of observable, verifiable, replicatable evidence that this is factually true.

...Do you really want to get into a debate about the existence of facts?

I'm well aware of this. Im not saying Darwinism and Social Darwinism are the same, but it does show the dangers and flaws of tyring to apply "science" to social affairs.

How about trying to apply science to teaching science? Is that dangerous? If we do that, then no intelligent design will be taught in science classes.

 

[Owl]

The whole world is magic. Just believe. Like kittens and rainbows. Awww

Whoever or whatever benefits you is right. That's all you can really use to judge. Of course, there isn't really a wrong or right in the objective sense anyway.

What benefits you is determined by what you are, and what you are is determined by what is real.

Before one can provide a rational justification to his answer to the question: "what is good?", he must provide rational justification to his answers to the questions: "what is real?", and "what am I?".

 

[nolla]

Of course, there isn't really a wrong or right in the objective sense anyway.

Much of right and wrong comes from "good of community". Survival of the fittest community kinda thing, so... you might be able to find right and wrong in almost objective manner.