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  1. #31
    Member metamorphysics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Prime View Post
    Realism is an illusion, there are only good/bad approximations of reality.
    Ones ability to determine those "good/bad approximations of reality" and how to get them would than be "Realism", so its not an illusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I place myself outside of this spectrum.

    I consider myself to be realistic/relativistic person in general.
    But if in reality there is a state of mind that is better(optimism or pessimism) than the "realist" would place themselves inside this spectrum. Yea sure you cant touch, smell, taste, hear, or taste the answer, but you see thats where thought comes in...

    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Common misconception: pessimists are unhappy.
    It is only a misconception if your "value" is generally pessimistic, seeing as there are cases where good things do happen and cause the apparent form of happiness... But it is not a misconception to say that the optimist is more happy than the pessimist(assuming all other conditions of reality are the same), in that to be optimistic is to embrace that form of happiness before an intended specific goal. In other words, in reality, your being has many lesser goals and not one overarching specific goal which only causes happiness to acheive the Ultimate goal -- pessimism, in nature, suspends many of these "lesser" goals thus preventing the ultimate outcome of your greatest goal. So, in essence, pessimists are more unhappy than optimists(assuming all other conditions of reality are the same).

    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    I think I'd describe myself as a realist. Everything is what it is, and I can put whatever slant I choose that works best for me. I choose mostly to view things as good, positive, or happy, since that is usually the most beneficial for me. So I guess you could say I'm a realistic optimist. Or an optimistic realist.
    Sometimes I can be negative if I don't think things through, though. And sometimes negativity has its place when things need to change.
    A hidden NT. Sometimes, at least

  2. #32
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metamorphysics View Post
    It is only a misconception if your "value" is generally pessimistic, seeing as there are cases where good things do happen and cause the apparent form of happiness...
    No one is completely pessimistic or completely optimistic. But even if in all cases you predicted a negative outcome, there would likely be times where a positive outcome happened instead. This gives you the inherent satisfaction of the positive outcome, plus the unexpected pleasant surprise. In some ways, this could mean that pessimists end up more happy.

    But it is not a misconception to say that the optimist is more happy than the pessimist(assuming all other conditions of reality are the same), in that to be optimistic is to embrace that form of happiness before an intended specific goal. In other words, in reality, your being has many lesser goals and not one overarching goal which only causes happiness to acheive the Ultimate goal -- pessimism, in nature, suspends many of these "lesser" goals thus preventing the ultimate outcome of your greatest goal. So, in essence, pessimists are more unhappy than optimists(assuming all other conditions of reality are the same).
    Pessimism does not suspend any goals, and neither does happiness embrace any. It is simply a way of viewing, a perspective. Pessimists predict negativity, optimists predict positivity. That is all. Nowhere in the definition is there any mention of ultimate goals, or lesser goals. Neither does is it an indicator of how accurate you are. If you are an optimist, and continually predict positive outcomes, yet they constantly fail to materialize, you could be unhappy. Reverse for a pessimist, where if you constantly predict negative outcomes, yet the positive outcomes materialize, you will probably be happy, plus, if the negative outcomes happen anyway, then it is possible it is less of a sting, as it isn't unexpected.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
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  3. #33
    Senior Member Alpha Prime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metamorphysics View Post
    Ones ability to determine those "good/bad approximations of reality" and how to get them would than be "Realism", so its not an illusion.
    Yes it is. You will never, ever, have a map (sensory data) of reality that is 100.00[..]00% accurate, unless you're omnipotent and all knowing. Reality is too complex and dynamic.
    Hit like a heavyweight, breathe deep, meditate
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  4. #34
    Member metamorphysics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha Prime View Post
    Yes it is. You will never, ever, have a map (sensory data) of reality that is 100.00[..]00% accurate, unless you're omnipotent and all knowing. Reality is too complex and dynamic.
    No its not. I am saying that if your statement is true about reality, than that is the condition of reality that determines "realism". For example, if the statement that says "you cant have a map that is 100% accurate" is true, than that would be the condition of reality(in that context), and "realism" would be understanding/knowing this condition and basing your actions off of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    No one is completely pessimistic or completely optimistic.
    You missed the Italic'ed word, damn it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    But even if in all cases you predicted a negative outcome, there would likely be times where a positive outcome happened instead. This gives you the inherent satisfaction of the positive outcome, plus the unexpected pleasant surprise. In some ways, this could mean that pessimists end up more happy.
    Well almost everything looks good(and if its not, its not too important and doesnt contradict my overall answer), I actually address most of your points.

    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Pessimism does not suspend any goals, and neither does happiness embrace any. It is simply a way of viewing, a perspective. Pessimists predict negativity, optimists predict positivity. That is all. Nowhere in the definition is there any mention of ultimate goals, or lesser goals. Neither does is it an indicator of how accurate you are. If you are an optimist, and continually predict positive outcomes, yet they constantly fail to materialize, you could be unhappy. Reverse for a pessimist, where if you constantly predict negative outcomes, yet the positive outcomes materialize, you will probably be happy, plus, if the negative outcomes happen anyway, then it is possible it is less of a sting, as it isn't unexpected.
    Most of what you said, i assume is already a given(or at least the essence of it), if its not an assumption than I addressed it, and if i havnt addressed it(or you didnt understand) I will attempt to now...

    The lesser goals and ultimate goal (happiness) I refer to are used in context of being where your state of mind (in this case pessimism/optimism) can determine the outcome of these, the specific goals(like sex or food) are less deterministic on the state of mind(which I refer to). It is not the definition of "pessimism/optimism" I talk about (b/c i take this for granted), it is the goals (happiness) that I talk about in relation to pessimism/optimism.

  5. #35
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    You missed the Italic'ed word, damn it.
    You seemed to be arguing against a "pure" pessimism, which I pointed out, is a position no one actually holds.

    You didnt read anything I said, did you? Well almost everything looks good(and if its not, its not too important and doesnt contradict my overall answer), I actually address most of your points.
    Yes of course. The problem is definitely that I didn't read your post, and yet decided to respond anyway. It certainly couldn't have been that maybe I misunderstood it (which could be either of our faults), or possibly that you misunderstood my post.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  6. #36
    Member metamorphysics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    You seemed to be arguing against a "pure" pessimism, which I pointed out, is a position no one actually holds.
    And, as I pointed out, I wasnt arguing against.

    Quote Originally Posted by Costrin View Post
    Yes of course. The problem is definitely that I didn't read your post, and yet decided to respond anyway. It certainly couldn't have been that maybe I misunderstood it (which could be either of our faults), or possibly that you misunderstood my post.
    sorry about that, lol, i get annoyed when people dont understand me, thus cuasing me to say/do things that arent "fair" to that person(ill edit that insult, having little to do with the discussion, out). And your right "understanding" could be either of our faults.

  7. #37
    rawr Costrin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metamorphysics View Post
    And, as I pointed out, I wasnt arguing against.



    sorry about that, lol, i get annoyed when people dont understand me, thus cuasing me to say/do things that arent "fair" to that person(ill edit that insult, having little to do with the discussion, out). And your right "understanding" could be either of our faults.
    And I get annoyed when people assume things about me (mostly when they aren't true). But the past is the past, lets move on to the future of a productive conversation.


    Quote Originally Posted by metamorphysics View Post
    The lesser goals and ultimate goal (happiness) I refer to are used in context of being where your state of mind (in this case pessimism/optimism) can determine the outcome these, the specific goals(like sex or food) are less deterministic on the state of mind(which I refer to). It is not the definition of "pessimism/optimism" I talk about (b/c i take this for granted), it is the goals (happiness) that I talk about in relation to pessimism/optimism.
    Yeah.... nope, still not sure what exactly you're saying. You're saying that, optimists will preemptively be happy before an event occurs, because they expect it will be positive, and reverse for pessimists?

    If so, then I disagree. If only based on personal anecdote, then that isn't how it works for me. I'm actually pretty neutral to the future and what events I expect will occur. I try to work towards positive outcomes, but I'm not disappointed if it doesn't happen.

    However, you could probably say that for some optimists and pessimists, this does apply, however, this is based on the individual, and not inherent in optimism and pessimism.
    "All humour has a foundation of truth."
    - Costrin

  8. #38
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Seduced by optimism. Earth-bound by pessimism.

  9. #39
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    This is not the best of all worlds, nor is it the worst of all worlds.

    It can be naive to think optimistically, and it hurts when your optimism lets you down, but it ultimately triumphs in making one more happy and pulling them through the hard times.
    It can be realistic to think pessimistically, but it can prevent you from obtaining happiness by stunting your ability to see possible goods and taking the risk in pursuing them.

  10. #40
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    I'll add that pessimism can also be naive, and often is. Like when someone thinks something won't work, when in reality it's possible and even probable. Very common.

    A lot of the time, pessimists aren't being realists, they are just depressed.

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