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  1. #1
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Default Physics, chemistry, biology and wisdom of life

    People talk alot about philosophy and spitutuality but I think that somethings needs to be said. This can be described in more detail but I don't want to make too big post. I am sure that some peope could lose them selfs in this so I am willing to clarify certan parts.


    Death is a the end of a person not a transformation or a journey. (in standard meaning of those words)

    Death happens when body is no longer able to function from chemical and physical perspective.

    People (even most of unbelievers) think about death as going away of this world. What look as a wrong approach for now.


    You simply stop functioning and that is it. There is no void and there is not suffering or joy. You simply don't exist anymore.


    Also you did not go anywhere you are still in this world. Most people look at the death as the end of a world but that is not true. World existed before your birth and it will exist after your death.


    What I find interesting is that science and religion have very different views about this, what many people overlook.

    Most of religions presume that when you die your soul/spirit goes to an afterlife. But science actually says the opposite.
    Science says that when you die it is the "spirit" that dies.
    Since you no longer exist as person but your body in a way survives since atoms that made your body still exist. It is just that the body is taken-apart
    but the atoms will continue to exist non the less.

    What I am saying is that the spirit dies and body lives when it comes to death.

    If we take E=mc2 into the account body and spirit are actually the same thing. But large number of deep spiritualists don't look at that this way.


    Now someone could say that all of this is a missunderstanding because many scripts and belifs are badly translated or explained in as wrong way.

    To be honest I think that this approach is running way from the truth.


    Here is some examples of this.

    For every human being it works that mentally abilities depend on quantity, quality and diversity of food that is consumesd. What should not work.


    Another example are drugs of all sorts and kinds. The most important drugs here are the ones that are given to a person to change their mental condition. What should not work if standard spiritual concepts are true.
    Since it should not be possible to change people so much with something material.

    The ilegal drugs are probably even better example of this.


    Since the dawn of biological evolution the atoms exist.
    Which means that they were a part of someone else before you were born.
    All people in this forum in themselfs have atoms that made Nazis and Egiptians while they were building the Pyramides. Because of this there can't be afterlife that people are imagining. Since the people through history are sharing the same building blocks (aka energy.)


    In body of a male that is average in size and it is not overweight there is about 7,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 atoms. Each of them has it's own history and all of them are much more older then mankind.
    If we overlook that some of them are created by a decay of heavier and redioactive atoms.


    I simply don't see where you can push any kind of a spirit in this story.
    As we live our lifes we are lossing atoms and gaining new ones. So there is a constant exchange of them in our body. You can say that you were going to school but that is not actually fully correct because the exchange replaced large amount of atoms that were going to school.
    The atom collective managed to remember the information but technically you were not there.


    The "problem" here is that this has a very large consequences on right and wrong. Because it gets harder to define a person.


    What people usually see as regrets of old people about doing something bad is a actually a side efect of bodychanges. It can be that changes are not enough to have a major change but we all change with time.


    The combination that did something bad did it because the combination of atoms was right for it. In the body and outside of the body.


    Also there is factor that atoms don't make only people they make everything.
    Everyone are made of huge number of them but many atoms have spent huge amount of time outside of mankind.
    In that group many were not even a part of life on Earth for hundreds of millions of years. Since they got trapped forming a rock. Limestone is one very good example of this since this rock is being producted by organisms.


    As I said each atom has its own path that is very long and all of them are made of energy and all of them are going in and out of the body all the time.
    Because of this I don't see how spirit could exist. Since I dont see how real personality could exist, since everything is atom/energy based.
    In this kinds of conversations people take word energy in a too spiritual way.
    Since we are talking about energy that is needed to create crystaline matter or it shows itself as friction etc.


    To me it looks like that people can only believe in spiritual things but there is no evidence that the storys are actually true.
    Since the entire thing is very connected with human emotional need it is even more likely that all of this is just a wishful thinking/feeling.

  2. #2
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    This is a very interesting concept. I think, somewhere I read that your body will replace every single one of your cells every 7 years. Except for the cerebral cortex, where general identity is stored. This would lead someone to believe that personality, identity, and if you want to call it that, "spirit" is the direct result of brain structure and unique connections. When people lose those connections, they lose who they are.

    So what does this conclusion mean for spirituality? I think all it means is that spirit is not something that can be quantified by science or empiricism, which I think we've already known. I really don't see many problems with people believing in something that is greater than themselves if it enhances their life in any appreciable way, however the issues come when that view is enforced externally.



  3. #3
    Senior Member Jeremy's Avatar
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    Who is to say that science is inherently correct? Could it not be that every observation that we make is false too? What if there is no law of physics, only a carefully crafted illusion? What if this is a dream? You can see it, but it might not exist. We rely far too much on "empirical" evidence, assuming it to be true, when in reality everything we believe is ultimately subjective.

    I think we all need to realize that we can never know anything, because trying to understand a box while you're trapped within it is a futile effort. And to say that people who believe in religion are inherently "wrong" is to be just like a zealot - you avoid perspectives that don't match your own views.

    Does the body or the spirit exist after death? We can't know, and we won't know. We don't even know if we exist now. All you can do is keep moving forward.
    "Can you set me free from this dark inner world? Save me now, last beats in the soul.."

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  4. #4
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Who is to say that science is inherently correct? Could it not be that every observation that we make is false too? What if there is no law of physics, only a carefully crafted illusion? What if this is a dream? You can see it, but it might not exist. We rely far too much on "empirical" evidence, assuming it to be true, when in reality everything we believe is ultimately subjective.

    I think we all need to realize that we can never know anything, because trying to understand a box while you're trapped within it is a futile effort. And to say that people who believe in religion are inherently "wrong" is to be just like a zealot - you avoid perspectives that don't match your own views.

    Does the body or the spirit exist after death? We can't know, and we won't know. We don't even know if we exist now. All you can do is keep moving forward.
    I agree here. I think an issue with science is that it is limited in what it can explain. Observation is essential to science, and our observational power is atrociously limited. Spirituality may be something that science is not equipped as a system to explain. Ask someone to "prove" that they love their parents, or a spouse. Empirically. It is difficult to do with the language of science.



  5. #5
    Member metamorphysics's Avatar
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    There are two existences for reality.

    1) Ultimate Reality. The true existence of our world.

    2) Perceptional Reality. The existence that we perceive to be real.

    It is true that our ability to determine true existence within the realm of the Ultimate Reality is very limited. We can determine, however, that the perception of existence is within the context of the Ultimate Reality. We call this "thought"("i think therefore i am"), the image of existence does exist, the reality of existence is largely unknown and indeed cannot be known(except for the flow of thought).

    Science is meant to determine the "real" existence of our perceptional existence, and not the true of existence of this world(b/c that is largly impossible). Its premis is in that our perceptions are the only existence we have(only basis of the ultimate reality) and thus the only existence we should act upon.

    put more simply...
    1. We dont know a chair(or whatever object) exists becouse our perceptions which tell us it is there can be deceived.
    2. We do know that the image of the existence of this chair does exist.
    3. logic is based on the fact that perception is the only existence we have, and thus for all tense and purposes, determines the "true" existence of our world. So we can say that the chair does actually exist untill proven otherwise.

    The "forms" of a concept(morality, free will, justice, existence, etc) can be determined. By means of science we can say "gravity exists", gravity will exist regardless of what you beleive in, it will always effect you(or at least the conditions of gravity) and no amount of faith or beleif in a religion will change this. These forms are the same way and will remain true regardless of beleif.

    This isnt science, its metaphysics. Science determines truth of our physical world, metaphysics determines truth of our existence, both setting values for objects or concepts that are absolute untill proven otherwise within the context there being.

  6. #6
    Member metamorphysics's Avatar
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    Also Jeremy, i dont get it... If your 35% F, arent you actually INTP? But then again wouldnt the assertion that your F(even with set values) contradict the fact that your T so than you would actually be F... im so confused

  7. #7
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metamorphysics View Post
    Also Jeremy, i dont get it... If your 35% F, arent you actually INTP? But then again wouldnt the assertion that your F(even with set values) contradict the fact that your T so than you would actually be F... im so confused
    For those tests, the percent range for functions is 100-0%.

    So it's T 100----------0----------100F, instead of 100---T---50---F---0.

    Or something like that.



  8. #8
    Member metamorphysics's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    For those tests, the percent range for functions is 100-0%.

    So it's T 100----------0----------100F, instead of 100---T---50---F---0.

    Or something like that.
    the test(s) i took set values where if your 85% T than your 15%F and so on.

    meaning 100---85%----0--15%-----100, i dont beleive i contardcited this... but this may differ with other tests so that the values of T/F are indepent of each other.

  9. #9
    Just a statistic rhinosaur's Avatar
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    Maybe it's more like a pie chart.


  10. #10
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    FYI, I'm a theist and I believe that when the body dies then so does the spirit.
    My wife and I made a game to teach kids about nutrition. Please try our game and vote for us to win. (Voting period: July 14 - August 14)
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