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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by metamorphysics View Post
    A reply to the question: honestly, do you really want freedom?

    Death is freedom, a state of being void of all thoughts and attachments...

    Thoughts are but a reflection of your past state, attachments an entity bound to your future state, and together they enslave a person to a reality of nothingness where the best scenario is death and the worst a contemplation of suicide.

    In death reality is neither bound to the past nor the future because neither one exists, in death your existence is reborn to a reality living in the present grasping that feeling that seemed to always torment you and slip from the fringes of your mind -- happiness; the feeling of well being; a state where the current mind is one with your surroundings and your instinctual desires depicted by these present entities; the oneness of self.

    Only in death can one be free and only in freedom can one be happy. So, do I truly want freedom, you ask? I want it with every living breath that I make, every step that I take, and every fiber of my being that lights my existence; The only thing in life that is important enough to die for, on more than one level...
    If that's your definition of death, I'm warning you now it probably won't happen.

    People like to assume they know what death is going to be like without needing empirical evidence. What little empirical evidence there is suggests you will reborn again and again for eternity, assuming "you" are roughly the arrangement of particles you currently are. (Ever expanding space and time, and the fact that particles seem to appear and disappear randomly in a vacuum = all kinds of possibilities happening over and over again. Of course this is a massive extrapolation because who knows what subtle laws may have start to have a significant effect a googolplex years in the future)

    The best way to describe our perception of death is like a door which people go through and don't seem to come back. For some reason the people who haven't gone through the door make all sorts of assumptions, claims, arguments etc and then go on to debate them, when they seem to admit at the same time that we need empirical evidence to know or have any ideas about these kinds of things.

  2. #12
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    The OP assumes that, in death, there is a state of being to speak of. Remember what it was like to be before you were born? I imagine it might be like that.

    So, freedom, in any sense of the word, could very well only take place during life.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Remember what it was like to be before you were born? I imagine it might be like that.
    My first imagining was that it was a void, rather like the OP.

    My second imagining was that of random experiences due to subtle energy fluctuations somewhere that mimic our own minds (probably made more vivid by the lack of other stimuli). A materialistic viewpoint that accepts qualia to exist, which might be slightly contradictory.

    My third imagining was that I have no idea.

    I suppose the most important question regarding the nature of death and post-death is 'what is it exactly that is dying?'

  4. #14
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    My first imagining was that it was a void, rather like the OP.

    My second imagining was that of random experiences due to subtle energy fluctuations somewhere that mimic our own minds (probably made more vivid by the lack of other stimuli). A materialistic viewpoint that accepts qualia to exist.

    My third imagining was that I have no idea.

    I suppose the most important question regarding the nature of death and post-death is 'what is it exactly that is dying?'
    technically everything that made up ur body cells\structure is different from the guy you remember from a few years ago. So we're probably just more or less only existing in the present\near present and, in the best case disolve like:
    Time -1: 1 = <1>
    Time 0: (now): 1 -0,5=0.5 + a new 0.5 = <1>
    Time 2 : 1-1=0 T0(0,5)+a new 0.5 = <1>

    So we're just people remembering about somebody else and convinced we are that person.
    And that present self disappears as a weave spreading through space into infinity.
    One day another total stranger will remember being the present you.

    So if you want to die and end up free.. don't worry, just wait.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

  5. #15
    Senior Member Anentropic IxTx's Avatar
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    Many a time have I pondered this... I think that death can be a kind of freedom, but only with the existence of thought, however paradoxical. I'm not really referring to any kind of mystic afterlife, just pure mind, akin to the Star Trek "noncorporeal being"; the ultimate in human evolution [think Q and protg Captain Picard]. And EcK, good mathematical analysis.

  6. #16
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    My first imagining was that it was a void, rather like the OP.

    My second imagining was that of random experiences due to subtle energy fluctuations somewhere that mimic our own minds (probably made more vivid by the lack of other stimuli). A materialistic viewpoint that accepts qualia to exist, which might be slightly contradictory.

    My third imagining was that I have no idea.

    I suppose the most important question regarding the nature of death and post-death is 'what is it exactly that is dying?'
    What's the reasoning that would lead you to imagine that we will have the facilities required for consciousness after death?

  7. #17
    The elder Holmes Mycroft's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metamorphysics View Post
    A reply to the question: honestly, do you really want freedom?

    Death is freedom, a state of being void of all thoughts and attachments...
    How do you know? Maybe death is a writhing agony extinguished only by rebirth.
    Dost thou love Life? Then do not squander Time; for that's the Stuff Life is made of.

    -- Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, June 1746 --

  8. #18
    Senior Member Dwigie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erm View Post
    If that's your definition of death, I'm warning you now it probably won't happen.

    People like to assume they know what death is going to be like without needing empirical evidence. What little empirical evidence there is suggests you will reborn again and again for eternity, assuming "you" are roughly the arrangement of particles you currently are. (Ever expanding space and time, and the fact that particles seem to appear and disappear randomly in a vacuum = all kinds of possibilities happening over and over again. Of course this is a massive extrapolation because who knows what subtle laws may have start to have a significant effect a googolplex years in the future)

    The best way to describe our perception of death is like a door which people go through and don't seem to come back. For some reason the people who haven't gone through the door make all sorts of assumptions, claims, arguments etc and then go on to debate them, when they seem to admit at the same time that we need empirical evidence to know or have any ideas about these kinds of things.
    + 10
    "Amen" to that.
    Sometimes I feel like I'm "on Mercury"-

  9. #19
    Member metamorphysics's Avatar
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    I Do not mean physical death(necessarily).

    I define death as this: The end of a certain state of being where one is free(or not). When i used "death"(in the OP statement) i am specifically referring to the ending of the state of being where one is not free.

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    You assume that the lack of freedom can be resolved by the passage of living to death.
    Cancelling the problem out isn't solving it.
    If the definition of "the passage of living to death" is: the cancellation of freedom, or the gaining of freedom... than it is not a "problem", it is an essence of being, it just is. So that "assumption", as you put it, is true seeing as i was the one defining X phrase and not you.

    I added cancellation of freedom because, assuming your state of being is free, than "death is not freedom but rather the loss of". When i stated "death is freedom" than literally this is a flawed statement especially if your life is already free, the statement is, however, under the assumption your state of being is not free thus making it a "true" statement.

    Do not take the value of a phrase literally, b/c it is only a representation of the "form" of thought of that individual and not the literal form in its existence.

  10. #20
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metamorphysics View Post
    I Do not mean physical death(necessarily).

    I define death as this: The end of a certain state of being where one is free(or not). When i used "death"(in the OP statement) i am specifically referring to the ending of the state of being where one is not free.



    If the definition of "the passage of living to death" is: the cancellation of freedom, or the gaining of freedom... than it is not a "problem", it is an essence of being, it just is. So that "assumption", as you put it, is true seeing as i was the one defining X phrase and not you.
    Oh I see
    So I'll define Unicorns as 2 wheeled vehicules and say they exist.

    Great, I'm a genius. (yawn) I can prove anything too.
    What you just did is called sophism. The art of empty logic.

    Read some plato for a try. Most of it is good, and you can find some great example of what you just did there in the dialogues
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

    Theory is always superseded by Fact...
    ... In theory.

    “I’d hate to die twice. It’s so boring.”
    Richard Feynman's last recorded words

    "Great is the human who has not lost his childlike heart."
    Mencius (Meng-Tse), 4th century BCE

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